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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#31  Postby mocha » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:41 am

i agree wif u kimseng... that is why we need real facts... we also dun want ppl to start speculating... and we would also encourage those who know to gif slight explanation... over these few days we get all sorts of stories... aur la, terengganu la, commercial diver la, not able to get into chamber la.... things like this will keep ppl puzzled and u know what happens when ppl are curious?? they start asking and getting info... and worse of all... it comes from the wrong sources... that is why we need facts... the CD story was explained by bugisdiver...

appreciate your earlier explanation on the scenario... and we also dun expect you to come out wif the report... coz its not official and not concrete...rather not speculate..... dun hafto get into details... but i hope to learn something out of it... the safety aspect? the vis? the current on that day? the dive boat condition?  we are not here to slack any DC or operator but we would rather not see any accident like this in the future..... cheers....
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#32  Postby reen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:57 am

i can imagine how the situation was..
i do feel the same when 2 of my frenz (divers) didn't come up to the surface
after most of the other members were already on the boat..
i screamed at everyone to look at the sea for any sign in case they drift away by currents.
My head was thinking all sort of things...the negative way..
alhamdullilah nothing bad happened..they surfaced within view.

some of things talked in MUW does come in handy and even as a precautions for me in most
of my fun dives....
the main point is to prevent and not to bad mouth the deceased..
you guys who involved might give some views on how/what can be done or to improve such
situation.
Example...what kind of safety would you referring too??
Each divers must bring a sausage? O2 on boat?
It doesn't have to be related about how he died.

I've been to Aur and there are certain places could give you quite a challenge for you to dives..
so do educate us..i know some of the divers like to boast a lot in the forum...but there are other
divers who loves to read, listen and learn to improve themselves...
But if you guys still dont want to talk about it...then it is up to you..no force..
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#33  Postby YungAi not YunGai » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:27 am

deepest condolence to the family...
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#34  Postby John F SeaDemon » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:12 pm

A post-mortem performed on a deceased person is always regarded as disrespect for the deceased...at least in the Asian context. GCG would agree with me on this.  But from a post-mortem, there are many things that we can learn from the passing of a person.  Therefore the aim is to educate, not, as Mocha said, to show disrespect or slacking the deceased.  We can discuss the probable cause of the incident, much like a post-mortem is done - and that is to find the cause of death, rather than what actions the deceased did to cause his/her passing.  We don't even have to refer to the deceased in person,, but talk more about the circumstances that may have led him/her to his/her death.

One life is gone for good.  If we do not learn from this death, we deny hundreds, of not thousands, the opportunity to stay safer during their dives, and the deceased would have died in vain.

And I, for one, do not want to feel bad should another diver die the same way while we go bouncing off the walls trying to justify if it is right or wrong to discuss the circumstances leading to this death.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#35  Postby Scoot » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:13 pm

again i would like to apologize if what i post have offend u guys out there.

Yes i would like to straighten this issue out on this trip itself.
we are on the same boat but dive in a different group.
it was my 1st time in aur and also newbie...
Was surprise also when get to noe how it was operated.
Been to a few places and all they stress is abt safety.
ask abt experience and diffilculties personally before diving.
This may help the leader to take extra care and monitor these diver.
The buddy is NOT QUALIFIED to rescue and only at a certain limit.

But on this trip nothing iwas asked by the leader b4 the dive.
Myself and buddy have to be independent and take care of each other.
i am glad that firstly we have a check out dive as to noe our weaknessess.
For some DM took care of my Buddy when she can't follow some dive site.Thks.

Secondly,
the objective of the dive is leisure/fun dives...
if divers have any others objectives...they should be STOP!!!!
This may endangered the life of other divers during the dives.

So in future if we are going again in a huge group like this i hope we can clear this matter up.
I want to have an enjoyable, fun and safe dive...thats all scuba diving is all abt isn't it?
So please help us do a safer trip next time..

Cheers,
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#36  Postby scubatex » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:14 pm

Condolence..and may he rest in peace.

We have read many about safety in diving and we even been teach about safety
the first we start to dive.

I understand how Kim Seng feeling. I have same feeling what Kim Seng do.

May he rest in peace.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#37  Postby chocolate » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:45 pm

my deepest condolence to the family.

i agree with some of you to discuss this issue as a case study. mistake and accident happens. no one can stop. discussing an issue like this is not to point out someone's fault, but there could be something that we can learn from it. we have no organization to report incidents in diving for investigation purpose. i bet, with some people's attitude toward bad luck, or just their pride, they are unwilling to heartly discuss about an accident. this attitude will not improve anything or helping anyone. by doing an investigation on an accident, it will reveal the truth where other people might benefit from it.

just my humble opinion. learned it from air crash investigation, NGEO. cheers!
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#38  Postby sheik » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:05 pm

Scoot wrote:
I agree with u Kimseng that to continue the discussion on what happen to the deceased is an issue of sensitivity.

What i want to express myself here is that on this trip,we are lack on safety.
We both noe what we saw on that boat that very day.
We all saw the tears in every each divers eyes....
This is actually my 1st trip with MUWs and we don't expect accident to happen this way...
But we can prevent this from happening in future.



Scoot, the trip you went was with MUW members, but not the MUW trip, although may be advertised here, as this is an open forum.

If there is a lack of safety, and accident happened after that, then we should talk about it! But, please open a new thread. After all, it's a tradition/norm for MUW members to write about their trip report after making their dive trips.

Let's hear it.
Last edited by sheik on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#39  Postby nanda666 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:12 pm

This if from Kim Seng's blog:

29th August 2008

I just finished Open Water Training Dive 4 with 3 students off Pulau Pinang, Pulau Aur, Johor.
We boarded the boat Phileo and waited for the rest of the divers. When the boat captain did a headcount 1 diver was missing.
The boat went a few round around the island but nobody as seen nor was there any bubbles coming out from the water.

Then it was decided that we go for a search underwater.
I did 5 CESA's the same day, so I volunteered to snorkel & skin dive instead of scuba.
I went towards north while another group went the opposite direction. After swimming for about 400m the divers on the boat shouted that they found him. So i made it back to the boat.

As i went up there he was lying while Vincent was trying to perform CPR. An ugly sight indeed. I went to the front of the boat together with the rest of my Open Water students.

After 20 min of CPR they gave up. And headed towards the Pulau Aur police station to make a report. The whole group was down.

May he rest in peace.


Kim Seng, I hope you don't mind that I "cut and pasted" this here but I feel that everyone on the forum is really troubled by the incident and would like a clearer picture. (The thread ws also moved by the moderators for discussion)
Good education leads to good conservation!!
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#40  Postby sepet » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:21 pm

That day...
1. the vis was good
2. there's no current
3. it wasnt a deep dive - my max depth was 15 - 16 meters (cant go deeper coz it's at sandy bottom)
4. the big group was broken to smaller groups led by experience guide/dm/instructor/diver
5. headcount was made before we went down
6. divers were briefed on the site & safety

the victim was found at the depth of 16 meters.
there's still lots of air in the tank
regulator still working (how do we know? we checked the equipment to see if there's any faulty)

what happened?
only God knows

where's the buddy?
i dont know who. but one thing i know is.. the victim went up again coz the tank was not open. then, he swam down chasing the group. did he manage to join the group? i dont know.. did someone saw him alive underwater after second time he decent? yes.

what went wrong?
God knows.

what i've learned:
safety first and never put your life on others ppl hand..
we all are certified diver, we know all the safety measurement, we know our responsibilities.


Accident can happen to anyone... experience diver or newbie..deep dive or shallow dive.. perfect vis or not.. strong current or no current.. good weather or bad.

Hope this is a good "case study" to those who really keen on knowing what happened that day.. honestly.. none of us really know the whole story and none of us know for a certain what went wrong.. and yes.. it's a very bad experience for all of us who were there.. and its very hard for us to talk about it.. and i dunno about others.. but im trying to delete this pictorial memory and hope to be able to dive again after raya..

thus, really hope we can just close this "case study"..

condolence to the family.. may he rest in peace

and for others who were there.. hope you guys manage to find your strength again..
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#41  Postby reen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:24 pm

nanda666 wrote:This if from Kim Seng's blog:

29th August 2008

I just finished Open Water Training Dive 4 with 3 students off Pulau Pinang, Pulau Aur, Johor.
We boarded the boat Phileo and waited for the rest of the divers. When the boat captain did a headcount 1 diver was missing.
The boat went a few round around the island but nobody as seen nor was there any bubbles coming out from the water.

Then it was decided that we go for a search underwater.
I did 5 CESA's the same day, so I volunteered to snorkel & skin dive instead of scuba.
I went towards north while another group went the opposite direction. After swimming for about 400m the divers on the boat shouted that they found him. So i made it back to the boat.

As i went up there he was lying while Vincent was trying to perform CPR. An ugly sight indeed. I went to the front of the boat together with the rest of my Open Water students.

After 20 min of CPR they gave up. And headed towards the Pulau Aur police station to make a report. The whole group was down.

May he rest in peace.


Kim Seng, I hope you don't mind that I "cut and pasted" this here but I feel that everyone on the forum is really troubled by the incident and would like a clearer picture. (The thread ws also moved by the moderators for discussion)


nanda666 dont you think u should ask him 1st before copy and paste it in here..well of coz it is obvious he posted it in his blog..but that doesn't mean he would like to share it with MUW forums members??
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#42  Postby Leafy » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:27 pm

My condolence to the family and may he rest in peace.

...and for the rest of diving friends that were there when it happened, I know that it's not easy facing this kind of accidents in person. stay tough, remember and all can learn from what happened there and will always keep in our mind about safety at all times when we're out diving.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#43  Postby nanda666 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:31 pm

his blog is link to his profile in MUW. I wanted to pm him and found the article so actually anyone here can read the article. I just put it here to stop the "speculation" as responses to this thread is coming real fast and all asking the same thing.
As I said, I hope he doesn't mind. And thanks Sepet for your comment.

I hope you guys don't take it too hard and look at the incident as positive as you can. We're all here to help.
Good education leads to good conservation!!
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#44  Postby kimseng the maverick rogue » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:38 pm

nanda,
don't worry about it.... you actually managed to find my blog  :D and it is posted up for reading. so you just redirected it no harm done.

to the mods,
i second sepet motion to close this thread or rather this case study.
AGAIN i repeat  

If there were to be a discussion on what can lead to a death of a diver, yes please do go ahead but do not put in specific references.

so create a new thread please...

sepet pretty much summed up all that any of us on that boat could describe.
lets stop speculating and leave some dignity for both the deceased and the family.

to the rest who were on the boat,
i hope that this incident will not dampen your spirit towards this hobby.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#45  Postby Scoot » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:40 pm

Sheik wrote:
Scoot wrote:
I agree with u Kimseng that to continue the discussion on what happen to the deceased is an issue of sensitivity.

What i want to express myself here is that on this trip,we are lack on safety.
We both noe what we saw on that boat that very day.
We all saw the tears in every each divers eyes....
This is actually my 1st trip with MUWs and we don't expect accident to happen this way...
But we can prevent this from happening in future.



Scoot, the trip you went was with MUW members, but not the MUW trip, although may be advertised here, as this is an open forum.

If there is a lack of safety, and accident happened after that, then we should talk about it! But, please open a new thread. After all, it's a tradition/norm for MUW members to write about their trip report after making their dive trips.

Let's hear it.


I guess we have enough of this topic already....
I have said what i need to say on my part....
Like sepet suggest to close the topic and moved on because we not sure what actually happen.
All we can do is to make a safer trip and dive next tyme no matter its MUWs member or MUWs Trip..
whatever it is...it need to be done in a better way...
So guys lets closed this topic plsss

My condolence to the family and may he rest in peace.

Cheers
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#46  Postby scubatex » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:55 pm

MOD please close this thread out of respect the family and the victim.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#47  Postby John F SeaDemon » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:04 pm

The following comment is made without making direct reference to the incident in question.

We are all licensed divers...what it means is that we are licensed to plan and execute a dive safely with our buddy.  That means, after the dive brief, have your own set of "briefing" with your buddy, what to do in case of emergency, signals, your dive time, your max depth etc etc; filling in the details of the general brief the dive guide had given.  It means, going back to basics - BWRAF.  Do buddy checks.  DO NOT rely on others to check your equipment for you!  Even if the dive guide had open the air for you, check and re-check please.

Always treat each dive as your first!

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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#48  Postby mocha » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:06 pm

Thank you sepet for clearing all the doubts and the summary… well guys, u heard/read the first hand experience from someone who was there…... just read it and please do not speculate further....obviously we all do not know what actually happened....

deepest condolences to the victim's family and may his soul rest in peace....

with this, i shall lock the thread....

thank u...

p/s: please open up new thread for discussions on safety issues... thank u
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#49  Postby John F SeaDemon » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:31 am

Nitrogen addict wrote:Please anybody with knowledge of this accident? female diver from sabah died in Aur


This was the original first posting asking for anyone with knowledge of this incident to come forward.  If we are to learn anything from this mishap, it is here and now.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#50  Postby ScubaBunny » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:38 am

First, condolence to the family and frens.

After reading Sepet's comments, Its kind of hard to know what happen as no one really sure what happen. For us buddy plays an important role. Checklist of the things that we do as an individual when diving is :

1) Having a good buddy helps, we maintain at least 1m / 3 ft distance from each other
2) Having to be able to identify your buddy - that is why me & buddy wear diff colored fins so both of us can identify each other underwater easily.
3) Having good air consumtion for both - we normally end 60 mins dive with 100bar but not ever less then 50Bar.
4) Know each other gear well, incase of any problem, we both know where is our air dump and each other emergency weight dump and knives just in case.
5) Lock bearings - we just got each other compass. So we can lock our location
6) One of us carry the SMB and one carries a mirror - for survival purpose
7) Revise our signals together and ask each other 'OK' sign each time we decend. Abort dive if one is not ok. We've done that.
8) Do search for 3 mins and both agree to go up and meet @ surface if in any case we get separated
9) If one take photograph, one will look out and again maintain 1m distance from each other to the group to reduce risk of separation from the group (I ding my tank if my buddy is too long, no shots are more important then our lives - live to take another photo..)
10) Tell the DM that we are taking photos and may be slow.
11) Do our safety stop close with each other coz sometimes, I have a problem of 'floaty' at the end of the dive, my buddy can look after me if I shoot up like a balloon.. :)
12) .... Maybe let my buddy add to our safety list..  :D

To all this is our practice, of course its not a benchmark of what so ever, but it works for us. We dont normally change buddies as for us, buddy is like our life support. We are no expert divers so we should rely on each other to make it a safe dive.

We do this EVERY dive. Altho list is long but for us, its already like in auto pilot mode. We are open to any other safety measures others take and practice them.. :)
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#51  Postby trigger fish » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:09 pm

That was well planned and good buddy system, Scubabunny  ;)

What u say was very right, keep it up  :D

We live to dive another day  ;)
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#52  Postby gcg » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:53 pm

SD, i think the best way around this is to assimilate and summarise the facts that has been presented so far about the events that took place. The idea is to see where or what went wrong and how one can refrain from repeating those wrongs. Sometimes it is small things that we tend to overlook that can be eventually very important.

Yes, we all have heard and read on how to practice safe diving but I am a practical person and for me I rather learn from peoples mistakes because often enough these are never in the books. I am sure the deceased have too. If so, then maybe there is something he could have forgotten? If he did overlook something, then I too could do the same. 

I hope by doing this, we dont start to accuse of being disrespectful. Personally, I find it more disrespectful to keep quiet because it appears like rather than learning, one has already judged him of being faulty and it appears as though something is amiss. What intrigues me is that we readily discuss the accidents that befall others in the other threads but in this, there seem to be a need to close and cover up. Obviously, I would suspect something more than what is written. And to then cover up and make it appear that the deceased is all to be blamed, is for me utter disrespect to the deceased. Many things could have happened - many variables that could have led to the event. If we can understand these variables, and learn how to avoid it the best, it is only going to make us better divers.

My 2 cents worth.
Last edited by gcg on Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DIVER DIED IN AUR 29TH AUGUST 2008

Post Number:#53  Postby Snafu » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:24 am

What is the latest update? ...Is it safe?...Is it professional?

:D
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