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Using a regulator for rescue breathing

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Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#1  Postby nanda666 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:02 am

Hi guys!!

This is just a thought:

In a rescue situation/dive emergency where we have to render "Rescue breathing resusitation", is there a way to use our regulator or air tank?

This is in view that:

1. The air we exhale has less than 21% Oxygen. (12-13%)
2. Providing "mouth to mouth" or "mouth to pocket mask" rescue breaths can be difficult in heavy seas.
3. Effective sealing of the mouth may not be created.
4. Rescue diver being inexperienced may even loose count, forget method, etc.

Is there a regulator/alt air source that can be fitted to a pocket mask and switched to positive pressure mode?

As I said earlier, it's just a thought!  :) :)   
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#2  Postby nanda666 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:21 pm

Modification of scuba regulator for IPPV.
by
Poulton TJ, Littleton EK, Raudenbush J.

Attention is appropriately being focused on the performance of adequate cardiopulmonary resuscitation in aquatic situations. We modified the second stage (mouthpiece) of a standard scuba regulator to permit intermittent positive pressure ventilation using either a mask or an esophageal obturator airway. Tests demonstrated the inexpensive modification to function adequately for emergency ventilation.

This article is on the MIT (Duke Medical Center) website but the above summary is all I can access.

Anyone know how to get the whole article. This reserch was done in 1985. (Yup! and I thought I had a new idea!!  :P :P )
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#3  Postby bijan » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:54 pm

here's the link..full article is available in pdf format

http://dspace.mclibrary.duke.edu/handle/2193/1909
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#4  Postby Kiwi Chef » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:59 pm

Hi just saw this topic.... and may be able to help. I was just recently reading the DAN o2 Manual and came across some info that may be of use.

Generally MTV's (Manually Triggered Ventilators) require addidional training. The modern day MTV's are designed to only allow a certain amount of pressure to be ventilated to the victim (normally lower than 140psi, which is the pressure regulators flow at in a freeflow situation) So if you were to convert a normal regulator and just use the purge button to provide ventilations you may cause further harm and damage than good. Remember when a vic is not breathing they cant regulate the air flow going in the lungs and may end up "swallowing" most of the air rather than it being directed to the lungs.

The other problem you will have is having an attachment fitted to your regulator to accomodate the pocket mask. Given the extra training that is involved it may be even more complicated than doing a simple mouth to mouth or mouth to pocket mask. Remember in real life situations any help you can provide the victim dosent have to be 100% perfect demonstration quality. So in my opinion it wouldn't be parctical lah unless you fully modify one reg and carry it around with you on every dive.
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#5  Postby Mephisto the Heretic » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:06 pm

Interesting.

on a related topic please Google or Wiki = Iron Lung
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#6  Postby nanda666 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:52 am

Kiwi Chef wrote:Hi just saw this topic.... and may be able to help. I was just recently reading the DAN o2 Manual and came across some info that may be of use.

Generally MTV's (Manually Triggered Ventilators) require addidional training. The modern day MTV's are designed to only allow a certain amount of pressure to be ventilated to the victim (normally lower than 140psi, which is the pressure regulators flow at in a freeflow situation) So if you were to convert a normal regulator and just use the purge button to provide ventilations you may cause further harm and damage than good. Remember when a vic is not breathing they cant regulate the air flow going in the lungs and may end up "swallowing" most of the air rather than it being directed to the lungs.

The other problem you will have is having an attachment fitted to your regulator to accomodate the pocket mask. Given the extra training that is involved it may be even more complicated than doing a simple mouth to mouth or mouth to pocket mask. Remember in real life situations any help you can provide the victim dosent have to be 100% perfect demonstration quality. So in my opinion it wouldn't be parctical lah unless you fully modify one reg and carry it around with you on every dive.


I do agree with you, Kiwi Chef.

I was looking more at the Alt Air source having a simple demand/positive pressure switching valve (With the positive pressure setting being a factory pre-set safe pressure suitable for rescue breaths and NOT the "free flow" pressure and flow rate) and a pocket mask that is modified (rather than modifying the regulator) to "click in" and accept a normal regulator mouth piece.

In this way, your primary is still the same, your alt air source is also still the same and you only carry a "modified" pocket mask". The rescue method would be:

Apply pocket mask to victim, turn alt air regulator to positive pressure and "click" onto pocket mask and tow victim to shore or boat.

This is the idea ONLY..... :) :) (I'll try to get my engineering team in PETRONAS to work on further details!!!  :D :D )
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#7  Postby aquaholic » Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:21 am

Why can't they create a MTV that is fitted with an inflator hose connector? You will have the benefit of MTV (manual demand, regulated airflow, relief valve) plus the ease of connecting to tanks from 21% to 100% O2.  B-)
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#8  Postby Nizaha » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Hi y'all.

They call MTV-100.. good course to take( advanced O2).. actually the MTV-100 will increase the O2 flow by 16%. (50% from oronasal  mask) if you're done perfect seal you will get almost 100% O2 to the receiver. Also less tiring to rescuer to delivery the O2.  But MTV also has disadvantage. Has to be 2 rescuer,( older moder mtv also can cause lung damage b'coz the flow rate up to 160lp/m. So get proper MTV, find the latest model only delivery to 40lp/m.

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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#9  Postby evo5555 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:25 pm

wow, MTV...sounds so deep...what i understand is Music TV  :D  :D  :D
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#10  Postby Kiwi Chef » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:51 pm

aquaholic wrote:Why can't they create a MTV that is fitted with an inflator hose connector? You will have the benefit of MTV (manual demand, regulated airflow, relief valve) plus the ease of connecting to tanks from 21% to 100% O2.  B-)




Cant laa regulators for 100% o2 have to be specially o2 cleaned if used in a 21% situation cant then switch to 100% use, danger of fires can occur.
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#11  Postby xr250dude » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:43 pm

There is a cheaper alternative to mechanical ventilation and that is the good ol universally used gold standard "AMBU bag".

http://www.ambuusa.com/NotesData/sitebuilderus/USproducts.nsf/ViewDocumentID/AMBU78B0673A939A9980C125708C003DE7C3/$FILE/SPUR-II-features.jpg?OpenElement

If you look at the 2005 new CPR guidelines, the compression ventilation ratio has been increased to 30:2, and many agencies suggesting effective chest/praecordial compression is key to survival in basic life support rather than ventilation, drowing being the exception  ;), nevertheless survival statistics remain dismal without defibrillation.

I think it is more important to have a good Ambu bag, O2 supply and a defibrillator at hand, be well versed in basic life support and even advanced life support if you can, last but not least a good evacuation plan.

Mechanical ventilation should, for now, remain the realm of hospital level medical care because of the complexity and associated risk of uncontrolled intermittent positive pressure ventilation (IPPV). There is however avenue for developing a simple IPPV device incorporating a scuba regulator but then you would probably need to show its advantage compared to the current gold standard.
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#12  Postby aquaholic » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:18 pm

Kiwi Chef wrote:
aquaholic wrote:Why can't they create a MTV that is fitted with an inflator hose connector? You will have the benefit of MTV (manual demand, regulated airflow, relief valve) plus the ease of connecting to tanks from 21% to 100% O2.  B-)




Cant laa regulators for 100% o2 have to be specially o2 cleaned if used in a 21% situation cant then switch to 100% use, danger of fires can occur.


Perhaps I should elaborate. The point is to keep it simple. Divers already have at hand O2 cleaned first stages, so if the MTV can be connected via the inflator hose you do not need another separate first stage for the MTV. BTW, a diver's personal kit always has a better chance of being serviced.

Assuming the victim's buddy is using O2 cleaned regs, then he can just fix the MTV to his inflator hose and start AV on the victim. There is no danger of fire because the high pressure first stage is already O2 cleaned. As long as your MTV is O2 cleaned, you can start by using the scuba cylinder containing the highest O2 mix (If you do not have a O2 cleaned reg, then just use the MTV with air).

Just my 2 cents - However, it would appear from this thread chest compressions are more crucial.
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#13  Postby xr250dude » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:20 pm

Its feasible, and I would think it would be fairly simple to construct if you wanted to deliver a certain pressure or volume. The main mechanical issues would be regulating that pressure to victim/patient. It doesn't take much to inflate normal lung, <10mmHg, <13cm H2O, <0.2psi. higher in a water logged lung. Too much (~15mmhg) and venous return (venous blood that returns to the right side of the heart) would be impeded, venous return is directly proportional to cardiac output (arterial blood that exits left side of heart after oxygenation in the lung), apart from lung over expansion problems.

If you look at the ambu bag, the bag is made with materials which allow the administrator to indirectly "feel" the compliance of the victims/patients lung which is important in delivering the right pressure/volume during ventilation. Medical ventilators regulate both inspiratory and expiratory phases apart from frequency, pressure and volume as pictured here, even then, the ambu (green) bag is indispensable adjunc to mechanical ventilation. Note also the close loop setup/soda lime, it is a rebreather.

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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#14  Postby darkcloudlo » Fri May 14, 2010 7:19 pm

nanda666 wrote:Hi guys!!

This is just a thought:

In a rescue situation/dive emergency where we have to render "Rescue breathing resusitation", is there a way to use our regulator or air tank?

This is in view that:

1. The air we exhale has less than 21% Oxygen. (12-13%)
2. Providing "mouth to mouth" or "mouth to pocket mask" rescue breaths can be difficult in heavy seas.
3. Effective sealing of the mouth may not be created.
4. Rescue diver being inexperienced may even loose count, forget method, etc.

Is there a regulator/alt air source that can be fitted to a pocket mask and switched to positive pressure mode?

As I said earlier, it's just a thought!  :) :)     



-pressure on regulator is not the same as the standard DAN o2.
-besides why dont u just use a pocket mask and apply rescue breaths from there on.
-waste of effort constructing a specail kind of pressure what not just because of the salt water
-besides the waste of timeness and the pure stupidity of the article i didnt even care about reading just stick to the normal rescue breaths
-in diving ppl die. decide what you think is necessary.
but dont go and use your "specailized tweaked altreg so you would just so happen to experiment on tricks"
-the chances of using alt reg for other purposes are much more higher than a "dumbgeek lifesaver alt"

the point is..

SALTWATER DONT HURT THE VICTIM only YOU
USE YOUR FINS!
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#15  Postby darkcloudlo » Fri May 14, 2010 7:20 pm

bijan wrote:here's the link..full article is available in pdf format

http://dspace.mclibrary.duke.edu/handle/2193/1909


PDF's arent the coolest thing on the net anymore.
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#16  Postby darkcloudlo » Fri May 14, 2010 7:22 pm

evo5555 wrote:wow, MTV...sounds so deep...what i understand is Music TV  :D  :D  :D


i watch V channel
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Re: Using a regulator for rescue breathing

Post Number:#17  Postby darkcloudlo » Fri May 14, 2010 7:28 pm

whats that book book used to say..

approach,evaluate and make contact.
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