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Marine Life Identification - How

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Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#1  Postby bijan » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:08 pm

only think is I still haven't grasp the concept how they name things...


Bones have highlighted an interesting topic..i would like to the answer as well..

1. How do the person that discovers new species name that specific marine life? do they name to what ever name they like or do they have to follow certain guidelines or submit to certain body in order to confirm their finding?

2. How do they get the scientific name?

Anybody have facts on this?

Thanks for answering yeah..i havent learnt anything new today..would like to before it hits 12 sharp..hehhe
bijan
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#2  Postby SeaDemon » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:58 am

Usually marine life names are divided into four categories. First would be the FAMILY, then GENUS, then SPECIES, and lastly COMMON NAME. However, Common Names can be deceiving as something in Perhentian would be called by a different name, say, in Sumatera.

So, let us concentrate on the first three categories. Let's take the Pelagic Thresher Shark for example.

Threshers come from the family ALOPIIDAE. The Genus name would be ALOPIAS. Then the species would normally be determined by its characteristics. So this one is PELAGIC. So, its scientific name is ALOPIAS PELAGICUS. Sometimes the SPECIES is also determined by the name of the discoverer.

Like the HIMANTURA JENKINSKII..or Jenkin's Whipray that you see in abundance off Tanjung Kerma in Perhentian.
SeaDemon
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#3  Postby SeaDemon » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:58 am

You said 12 sharp. I did it at 11.58am.
SeaDemon
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#4  Postby talk2daa » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:29 pm

bijan..are you entering contest or something...sharing is caring

SD: long time no see u
talk2daa
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#5  Postby bijan » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:37 pm

You said 12 sharp. I did it at 11.58am.


:P..i was referring to last night..

anyway, thanks SD..so, the family and genus name is already predefined? who defines them? an international marine body or somewat?
bijan
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#6  Postby SeaDemon » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:30 pm

Hi Daa. Long time no see gua kapak lu mati.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D How are you bro? A bit busy with personal stuff la.

Bijan, usually it would have to go through a body to see if the same species has been identified or discovered by someone else.
SeaDemon
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#7  Postby adik » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:53 pm

Usually marine life names are divided into four categories. First would be the FAMILY, then GENUS, then SPECIES, and lastly COMMON NAME. However, Common Names can be deceiving as something in Perhentian would be called by a different name, say, in Sumatera.

So, let us concentrate on the first three categories. Let's take the Pelagic Thresher Shark for example.

Threshers come from the family ALOPIIDAE. The Genus name would be ALOPIAS. Then the species would normally be determined by its characteristics. So this one is PELAGIC. So, its scientific name is ALOPIAS PELAGICUS. Sometimes the SPECIES is also determined by the name of the discoverer.

Like the HIMANTURA JENKINSKII..or Jenkin's Whipray that you see in abundance off Tanjung Kerma in Perhentian.


Thanks Bijan for asking this question and SD for the Facts...

Im so Jahil (lack of knowledge) about it.
adik
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#8  Postby IkanBilis » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:17 pm

Thanks for the question, Bijan and feedback from SD. Naming a species, relies on so many factors, as illustrated in National Geographic Magazine July2007. The feature tells us about Carl Linnaeus, the name giver, who systemized and catergorize species.

Good read, helps you understand how a specific name is given to species..
IkanBilis
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#9  Postby bijan » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:27 pm

THANK YOU VERY MUCH IkanBilis..u nailed the question! i googled "carl linnaeus" and got the answer i'm looking for..very good article, explained in detail how they categorize the scientific name

1. How do the person that discovers new species name that specific marine life? do they name to what ever name they like or do they have to follow certain guidelines or submit to certain body in order to confirm their finding?  

They would have to follow the classification scheme invented by Carl Linnaeus, Father of Taxonomy. The classification system establish consensus on plant and animal names and understand complex evolutionary relationships between organisms. The Linnaean taxonomic system begins with the most general category of Domain or Kingdom and becomes increasingly specific until it ends with a specific genus and species name


2. How do they get the scientific name?

The scientific names is derived from Greek and/or Latin roots. Linnaeus developed his system so that each species had a Latin double name. The first name is the genus and the second is the species name. This two-word naming system is called binomial nomenclature. The name is always italicized with the genus capitalized and the species in lowercase letters.

Example:

To demonstrate how an organism is classified, let us use the classification of the commonly named “the blue whale”. The information provided by this common name is not enough to put the whale into any evolutionary relationship with other organisms. Scientists however, call the blue whale by its scientific name—Balaenoptera musculus. An example of how scientists would classify and name a blue whale is as follows:

• All whales are animals because they have more than one cell, eat food and originate from a fertilized egg—so they first are categorized into the most general category—Kingdom Animalia.

• Whales are placed into the Phylum Chordata (the category below Kingdom) because they have a spinal cord and gill pouches. In fact, humans are also in Phylum Chordata.

• Because they are warm-blooded, produce milk for their young and have a heart with four chambers, whales are in the Class Mammalia.

• At the “Order” category, whales begin to be distinguished from humans and other land mammals. Whales are classified as cetaceans because they live in the water all year round. The suborder is Mysticeti due to the baleen plates in the mouths of whales, helping them to filter in food.

• Blue whales have folds around their throat that expand to take in large volumes of water when feeding. Because not all whales have this characteristic, blue whales are placed into the Family “Balaenidae”.

• Within the Family is another group of species more immediately related to each other. The “Genus” for blue whales is Balaenoptera.

• The definition of a species includes many factors, especially the requirement that individuals must be able to successfully breed with each other. The species name for blue whales is musculus, meaning that in addition to other common traits, whales of the species musculus are able to breed with each other and provide viable (living) offspring. The final scientific name is Balaenoptera musculus with the genus capitalized and the species name in lower case letters and both italicized.


For further reading, can refer to MARINE TAXONOMY

http://marinebio.org/Oceans/MarineTaxonomy.asp
bijan
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#10  Postby zzz » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:55 pm

Good work Bijan,

Thank you for putting this post. So I learn a new thing today :)
zzz
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#11  Postby jgshuwei » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:57 pm

Good one. Thanks bro!
jgshuwei
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#12  Postby adik » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:20 pm

Thanks bijan !!!
adik
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#13  Postby zani » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:01 am

Great Stuff!!!!
zani
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#14  Postby cookoodiver » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:46 am

what a good info u got there........... Thanx!!!!!!
cookoodiver
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#15  Postby poRnstar » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:15 am

hmmm... good info la..brother bijan!
8-)
poRnstar
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#16  Postby derek » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:32 am

good info
derek
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#17  Postby Rol_an_dive » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:35 am

I have a wrong job< not enough time to chase down all these links, makes me realise how much I know I dont know, and speculate on all the things that I dont know that I dont know.... is that clear? or like Viz at Tioman Marine park wrecks?  ;D ;D
Rol_an_dive
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#18  Postby nudi » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:50 pm

Like to contribute..coz I've co-described a new species of frog. Took us nearly 5 years from the first day I found it till it got published. Many things happened along the way to the point of a broken friendship. But it doesnt have to be so dramatic as in my case. The naming is the most difficult part.

From my end i want it to be this but the other party wanted that. So we agreed on a middle-way solution. One wanted to honour somebody, my part wanted to reflect the country of origin by using the Malay language as the basis for naming.

The frog is in the genus Theloderma. All members of this genus have warty n glandular skin except this new species that I found in Weng, Kedah. The other party also found this new species in Thailand. So sometimes naming of a species uses locality of where found. Eg if u found a new species in Endau Rompin, u'd probably want to name it Rana endauensis (just add "-ensis" at the end of the name of the place). If u want to name it after a person's name, then u add "ii" or "i" at the end. Eg Ansonia latifi or Limnonected blythii.

Most of the time u'd want to use latin names that reflects the morphology or physical charateristics of the species Eg Occidozyga laevis (laevis here means smooth skin). So, I could have named my frog Theloderma laevis. But it all depends on both parties. Since my co-writer agreed to use "licin" as the species name, I got to promote the frog as being a "Malaysian". Most Japanese scientists who came to Malaysia and described new species ended up with Japanese names like Rana matsui or soemthing like that.

The latest incident that got the Ministry in a fit was the reclassification of our tiger from Panthera tigirs to Panthera jacksoni (who the hell is this Jackson anyways). Well he's the guy who actually studied the DNA of this tiger.

So, the last point I want to make is how u get the new species registered.

U have to deposit it in a museum with a voucher number where anybody can access and publish the description in a peer-reviewed journal. But along the way u really need to compare many specimens from museums to avoid misidentification and redundancy. Toughest process. That is why it may take many years and it may not (less than a year depending on how hard ur effort is). Then u can email ur journal to an international database.

Sorry for the long reply....
Last edited by bijan on Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
nudi
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#19  Postby adik » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:33 pm

Thanks Nudi for the infos!!! ;) ;) ;)
adik
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#20  Postby IkanBilis » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:37 pm

Thanks Nudi for the local perspective on new species naming process. Understandable why Panthera tigris were named Panthera jacksonii, because its a new sub-species altogether. Different from Bengal Tiger, Siberian Tiger, although still within the Panthera species. That's the importance of collecting DNA samples of various Malayan Tigers, and comparing them to the DNA from Bengal and Siberian Tigers.

It would be good if we can collect samples of unidentifiable faunas to be disected and analysed, DNA type-matched against other similar species, to speed up the process of publishing the results in peer-reviewed journals. Unfortunately, most of us are contented by just looking and admiring those splendid creatures..
IkanBilis
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#21  Postby nudi » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:42 pm

adik n ikanbilis,...
Ur welcome...  ;)
nudi
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#22  Postby Quero » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:40 pm

Thanks nudi!

I think you are too modest since you don't mention that your discovery becomes an official "type specimen" that all other future discoveries of a similiar species need to be compared against and from which a "key" is derived.

A type specimen, forumers, is a very precious thing! Kudos, nudi!
Quero
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#23  Postby zzz » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:53 pm

Thanks Nudi... It was not too lengthy... I now understand why it takes a long time for the scientist/ discoverer to name the  species.

Out of topic: Where can I see a photo of the frog you discovered? I am so intrigued :)
zzz
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#24  Postby IkanBilis » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:02 am

Thanks Nudi... It was not too lengthy... I now understand why it takes a long time for the scientist/ discoverer to name the  species.

Out of topic: Where can I see a photo of the frog you discovered? I am so intrigued :)


Full account of the story goto http://www.naturemalaysia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=319Image
IkanBilis
 
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#25  Postby Bones » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:26 pm

Thanks ikan bilis
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#26  Postby Leafy » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:20 pm

Thanks bijan, this is a very informative thread you started. thanks nudi for sharing your experience and certainly intrigued by the process. can we have this put into the "How-To" section? (if there's any) just curious, cuz so later-later easy if want to find it again.
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#27  Postby bijan » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:35 pm

do we have a "how to" section leafy? anyway, i already made this thread a sticky
"Strength is not the attitude of knowing everything, but rather an acceptance of everything"
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#28  Postby nudi » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:10 pm

leafbug wrote:Thanks bijan, this is a very informative thread you started. thanks nudi for sharing your experience and certainly intrigued by the process. can we have this put into the "How-To" section? (if there's any) just curious, cuz so later-later easy if want to find it again.


Anytime.... ;)
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#29  Postby pummkin » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:31 pm

Taxonomy is the naming, describing and classifying of organisms. It is the only way western scientists have of distinguishing between organisms. It has strict rules which all taxonomists follow when identifying, naming and describing species.

If you find an undescribed specie, these are the methods to follow but given the ethical considerations, we are more likely to take lots of photographs for submission than to take a live specimen for study. There are two ways you can go on to apply to name your creature or critter:-

1) Collecting the specimen, preserving them & sending it to the Australian Museum of Taxonomy for Fish (and Marine Invertebrates).
2) Photographing the subject obtaining as many angles as you can, as clear as you can then submit the photos.

Frankly, I do the number two because seldom would you find another undescribed specie of nudibranch for example, lurking in the vicinity so if I was to collect it, I wouldn't know if I had taken the whole specie out of existence or not.

You now have a mission with your camera!
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Re: Marine Life Identification - How

Post Number:#30  Postby evelynwg85 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:30 pm

To name a new species of fish have to undergoes many procedures...first of all,it's very important to identify their meristic, morphology, and genetic...for eg..a fish from same genus normally looks the same...but we have to look the details of tht fish...for example...the numbers of spines of the fish of the dorsal fins can be different if they come from same genus but different sp...but we must do genetically analysis b4 we can make sure the fish is new spesies or wht...normally the spesies name can be name after the founder name...or quite a lot of people do use those popular people name...so they can be paid for putting their name of the new sp....it's just depend la....some people do name it of certain characteristic like place etc....heh heh......can put ur lover name also... :P
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