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questions on primary and secondary regulator

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questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#1  Postby superkingkong » Fri May 18, 2007 4:31 pm

hmmm a bit confused on the philosophy...

u donate ur primary reg to your buddy in case ur buddy in OOA situation, hence, u use your sec regulator

arguement: because u want to donate a "working" reg to your buddy and u don't want to donate a sec reg/oct because it could be faulty or u r not sure whether it is working or not.

my question is: if u donate a "working" reg to your buddy, and u breath through your 2nd reg, how sure r u it will work on you? and if you are your 2nd reg is working, why don't u donate it to your buddy?

or is it a "Diving Rule" saying that u "must" donate 1st reg to your buddy and u use 2nd reg?

in the airline, u r thought to put the oxygen mask on yourself first, then only ur child..

but in diving case, buddy is no.1? and yourself is no.2?

thanks for clearing up.
Last edited by superkingkong on Fri May 18, 2007 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
superkingkong
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#2  Postby SeaDemon » Fri May 18, 2007 4:57 pm

IMO, this 2m hose thing on the primary regulator is very much a DIR thing. It is thought of because technical divers do a lot of overhead environment diving (penetration of wrecks, caves, caverns etc). Therefore, in an emergency, it allows for two people to buddy breathe and at the same time squeeze through tight spaces.

Next question that may arise is, why not put the long hose onto the secondary regulator instead. Again, IMO, it would be easier to pull out the one from your mouth to pass to the distressed buddy, then chin down to locate the secondary, than fiddling with the secondary trying to release whatever clip it may have and pass to that distressed diver.  This reasoning has to do with your next questions. That is why, the secondary is almost always on its own first stage, giving out the same amount of pressure to the diver and his buddy.

However, again IMO, long hoses are not really a necessity if you are diving in open water environment...but it gives comfort to both divers, and especially to the donor diver, should the distressed diver panic and start to drag him to other places or depth.

I don't subscribe to the "giving the buddy a working regulator." Once you dive the virtual or actual overhead environment, every single regulator must work well and above expectation.

In the airline, hypoxia is the main concern. When hypoxia hits, it is almost unforgiving. You will just pass out because of immediate loss of cabin pressure, resulting in the exposure of aircrew, cabin crew or passengers to the oxygen-starved thin air outside the aircraft. So if you cannot put on your mask and get O2 into your system, you will pass out and could die..but most important, your child might die of O2 starvation before you do.  So you must have a clear mind first in order to be able to help your child.

So your question is, why doesn't this ruling apply to divers? It is because a diver breathing air/gas would have enough O2 in his/her system to be able to hold the breath long enough to feed the regulator to the distressed diver and at the same time locate the secondary. In a cabin decompression situation, added the extreme cold temperature outside the aircraft, one will pass out in a matter of seconds. At 35,000 feet, a person's TUC (time of useful consciousness) in a sudden cabin presure loss is 15 seconds. A diver can hold his/her breath longer.
Last edited by SeaDemon on Fri May 18, 2007 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SeaDemon
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#3  Postby HoleMaster » Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 pm

Correct if im wrong SKK, but shouldnt u always check that both regs are in working order?...rule of thumb is...ur equipment must be in working order ;)
HoleMaster
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#4  Postby Jim » Fri May 18, 2007 5:53 pm

SKK,

If panicked set in when you are in OOA situation, you will grab yr buddy's primary coz it is what you see in front of you & its working.  Why? Coz you are OOA & need to breathe from the 1st reg that you see. All yr training will be forgoten then which is to secure & use buddy's octo.

Oso if you are not panicked, by receiving the primary you are assured thats things are fine & under control. As the owner of the reg, the donor should know the working condition of his/her equipment.  
Jim
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#5  Postby SeaDemon » Fri May 18, 2007 8:55 pm

Hope the answers by Jim, Hollowman and myself have helped clarify the thing to you
SeaDemon
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#6  Postby bobo » Fri May 18, 2007 9:15 pm

so anyone wanna new reg.. CRESSI...  ::)
bobo
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#7  Postby GOD » Fri May 18, 2007 9:18 pm

Hope the answers by Jim, Hollowman and myself have helped clarify the thing to you


Correction ... IS HOLEMASTER daaaaaaaa!!!!!!

;D
GOD
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#8  Postby SeaDemon » Fri May 18, 2007 9:22 pm

Hope the answers by Jim, Hollowman and myself have helped clarify the thing to you


Correction ... IS HOLEMASTER daaaaaaaa!!!!!!

;D


Ahh...how can I forget our Tech Diving Instructor??? ;) ;D ;D :o :o ::) ::) :P :P ;D ;D
SeaDemon
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#9  Postby nizaha » Fri May 18, 2007 9:31 pm

hmmm a bit confused on the philosophy...

u donate ur primary reg to your buddy in case ur buddy in OOA situation, hence, u use your sec regulator

arguement: because u want to donate a "working" reg to your buddy and u don't want to donate a sec reg/oct because it could be faulty or u r not sure whether it is working or not.

my question is: if u donate a "working" reg to your buddy, and u breath through your 2nd reg, how sure r u it will work on you? and if you are your 2nd reg is working, why don't u donate it to your buddy?

or is it a "Diving Rule" saying that u "must" donate 1st reg to your buddy and u use 2nd reg?

in the airline, u r thought to put the oxygen mask on yourself first, then only ur child..

but in diving case, buddy is no.1? and yourself is no.2?

thanks for clearing up.



Hi SKK

Since we in the technical forum.

We always doning our long hoses to OOA person. Period.  A good tech diver alwasy pratice the OOA drill and bubble check at the shallow water or 2 mtr deep before start decent to the depth. It's no other ways your buddy can snap the bungee cord on your second reg.

regarding about buddy 1st and yourself No2, doesn't make sense to me at all . Why should i take a risk to save someone life if your life in Jeopardy, You might do the best to help your buddy by....

Take a proper course

Safe diving

Zaha
nizaha
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#10  Postby adik » Fri May 18, 2007 10:50 pm

SKK,

If panicked set in when you are in OOA situation, you will grab yr buddy's primary coz it is what you see in front of you & its working.  Why? Coz you are OOA & need to breathe from the 1st reg that you see. All yr training will be forgoten then which is to secure & use buddy's octo.

Oso if you are not panicked, by receiving the primary you are assured thats things are fine & under control. As the owner of the reg, the donor should know the working condition of his/her equipment.  


Thats the thing jim ... In Open water.. they teach me to tap my buddy, show the OOA signal, Grab Octopus in triangle zone, Remove my reg replace with buddy oct. hold hands and blablabla

Make no sense right?? a panicked diver will just reach for whatever is infront of them as you said.

According to my Instructor, demonstration will be just grab octopus than only request for Buddy breathing.

Which one is the best practice in a real case scenario????? Should the IE request us to demonstrate which method should we use????
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#11  Postby Jim » Sat May 19, 2007 12:44 am

Adik, when panic you will forget what you learn. Survival becomes the key. Its the same in life. Example, when we learn to drive, we are not to slam the break before looking at rear view mirror. In reality, we just slam the break. But you cant do that during JPJ test. Same with diving. In OWD you learn the proper way & in IE you hv to demo as per the agency std.

Moral of the story? Practise, practise, practise. Be calm, be calm, be calm. ALWAYS check yr guage.

pssst...... Dont practise to slam yr break on the road ya......
Jim
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#12  Postby SeaDemon » Sat May 19, 2007 4:09 am

SKK, what Nizaha has pointed out above is true. Technical divers do their drills in the shallow part before commencing descent. We do OOA drills, then we check for leaks to make sure the equipment used by the buddy and us are in perfect working order. Technical divers are also required to be able to tell how much air has the buddy used in certain number of minutes. Dive plans and gas planning are always made based on the person with the worst air consumption.

Giving the regulator in the mouth is the simplest and trouble-free way to help the buddy in an OOA or regulator/tank failure scenario. We practise this regularly so that when the actual thing happens, we don't panic.

Unlike in the recreational set-up, the secondary regulator is a mirror of the primary. They work the same way, give the same pressure. If on the Poseidon's first stage, both regulators are slotted at the Primary port, and not normal LP ports.

Adik, what Jim has said is true. In any situation, practise makes perfect..or in the case of diving..it determines whether you're going to let yourself be drowned by a panicked buddy..or keep your cool and get him to relax and breathe through your alternate air source.
SeaDemon
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#13  Postby adik » Sat May 19, 2007 8:38 am

itu la SD & JIM !!!

What they teach is something that we know for a fact,  we will not use it in the real case of OOW panicked diver situation. So whats the point of the drill, cant they just show what average panicked will do and what the donor should do .  :) :)
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#14  Postby SeaDemon » Sat May 19, 2007 10:47 am

itu la SD & JIM !!!

What they teach is something that we know for a fact,  we will not use it in the real case of OOW panicked diver situation. So whats the point of the drill, cant they just show what average panicked will do and what the donor should do .  :) :)


I'm not an instructor...so I stand corrected. But I'll base it on my personal experience both as a DM (having to demonstrate skills) and a diver.

An OOA situation is an extreme one. What preceeds this situation is the Low On Air (LOA) situation where, upon reaching 50 BAR, the diver signals that he/she is LOA and proceeds to do a safety stop and prepare to surface. If you look at OWD OOA skills, the OOA diver will signal to his/her buddy that he/she is out of air. There will be regulator exchange, the "ascend" signal is given, the arm held, and then both buddy and OOA diver surface.

Firstly, an OOA situation is something that IS AVOIDABLE if checking the gauges becomes a natural habit. With frequent practise, the OOA diver should know that he/she is supposed to go for the Octopus. Which is why, at the end of a dive briefing, buddies are supposed to agree on dive plans, emergency actions, hand signals etc..over and above what has been briefed to them by the dive guide. There must be a set of agreed upon plans between buddies. The act of holding the arm while ascending, to me, is a way to reassure the panicked OOA diver that someone is there with him/her, and also a measure to control the panic-stricken OOA diver's ascent rate by the donor diver.

Likewise, a pilot in an emergency can say stuff like "Holy f*** we're all going to die" but no...together with the co-pilot (in a multicrew situation) they go through a set of procedures all the way even if it looked hopeless.

Practise ensures panic does not rule the person in distress.
SeaDemon
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#15  Postby Jim » Sat May 19, 2007 8:45 pm

Yup, make a habit to ALWAYS look at yr guage at regular interval. Doing so you can avoid OOA situation....

Not many people realise this, but in yr next dive, do observe the people in yr group. Most of them will only check their guage when ask by the DM or when the DM signal for safety stop. Is it too much effort or time to check yr own guage w/o other people to ask you?...
Jim
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#16  Postby adik » Sun May 20, 2007 1:41 am

Thanks guys for the explanation...

Of course safety is the upmost priority here, and practice will calm us down in the unlikely event.
but, in courses for example, we were tought to use method A, but real case scenario kena buat cara B. Kenapa tak ajar terus cara B

Method 1)In OWD to DM course kena follow sequence buddy breathing starting by tapping your donar and signal for OOW, grab donor Octopus and bla bla.

Method 2) Real case, actual happening, average victim will grab the Buddy regulator/ just grab the donor octopus than only requesting for Buddy breathing.

Why not straight away teach the second method???

So if I would like to persue for IDC for example, which method should I use during Demonstration?? Will I get 5 points for using method no 2 ???  

Sorry guys , Im still not so clear on this part.  
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#17  Postby GOD » Sun May 20, 2007 1:59 am

Thanks guys for the explanation...

Of course safety is the upmost priority here, and practice will calm us down in the unlikely event.
but, in courses for example, we were tought to use method A, but real case scenario kena buat cara B. Kenapa tak ajar terus cara B

Method 1)In OWD to DM course kena follow sequence buddy breathing starting by tapping your donar and signal for OOW, grab donor Octopus and bla bla.

Method 2) Real case, actual happening, average victim will grab the Buddy regulator/ just grab the donor octopus than only requesting for Buddy breathing.

Why not straight away teach the second method???

So if I would like to persue for IDC for example, which method should I use during Demonstration?? Will I get 5 points for using method no 2 ???  

Sorry guys , Im still not so clear on this part.  


During Course: Who is going to pay if the student died while doing Training? ... Play safe.

Real Case: Certified diver already .... so is the divers problem to learn & adapt themself

You like to persue for IDC ... use method 1 & add  OOA finning situation as a bonus (If you dont know this, ask your instructor about it).

BTW... Adik, enough experience to turn professional?

;D
GOD
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#18  Postby SeaDemon » Sun May 20, 2007 2:00 am

What to do...

That is why I have not decided to go for my IDC. However, if I do go for IDC, it is not so much going to be about teaching divers, but more for reviewing standards and procedures.

As a normal diver or DM, the industry will just take one look at you and tell you to F-Off.
SeaDemon
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#19  Postby adik » Sun May 20, 2007 2:33 am

Thanks guys for the explanation...

Of course safety is the upmost priority here, and practice will calm us down in the unlikely event.
but, in courses for example, we were tought to use method A, but real case scenario kena buat cara B. Kenapa tak ajar terus cara B

Method 1)In OWD to DM course kena follow sequence buddy breathing starting by tapping your donar and signal for OOW, grab donor Octopus and bla bla.

Method 2) Real case, actual happening, average victim will grab the Buddy regulator/ just grab the donor octopus than only requesting for Buddy breathing.

Why not straight away teach the second method???

So if I would like to persue for IDC for example, which method should I use during Demonstration?? Will I get 5 points for using method no 2 ???  

Sorry guys , Im still not so clear on this part.  


During Course: Who is going to pay if the student died while doing Training? ... Play safe.

Real Case: Certified diver already .... so is the divers problem to learn & adapt themself

You like to persue for IDC ... use method 1 & add  OOA finning situation as a bonus (If you dont know this, ask your instructor about it).

BTW... Adik, enough experience to turn professional?

;D


No bro ... no intend to turn profasionalley .. To big la the responsibilty, takut nanti jadi Riak pulak.  
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#20  Postby GOD » Sun May 20, 2007 2:41 am

As a normal diver or DM, the industry will just take one look at you and tell you to F-Off.


Instructor's too

;D
GOD
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#21  Postby nizaha » Sun May 20, 2007 3:58 am

Thanks guys for the explanation...

Of course safety is the upmost priority here, and practice will calm us down in the unlikely event.
but, in courses for example, we were tought to use method A, but real case scenario kena buat cara B. Kenapa tak ajar terus cara B

Method 1)In OWD to DM course kena follow sequence buddy breathing starting by tapping your donar and signal for OOW, grab donor Octopus and bla bla.

Method 2) Real case, actual happening, average victim will grab the Buddy regulator/ just grab the donor octopus than only requesting for Buddy breathing.

Why not straight away teach the second method???

So if I would like to persue for IDC for example, which method should I use during Demonstration?? Will I get 5 points for using method no 2 ???  

Sorry guys , Im still not so clear on this part.  


Yo Bro.

Let make this stuff clear, we are in Technical diving question, why should we involved  with  IDC or IE stuff anyways.nothing to do with that !

Better start to memorized your confined water cue card, if you planning to do IDC. Buddy breathing is an optional. That why method 2 doesn't work for open water class, at least if you start teaching Divemaster course or higher, because Divemaster might conduct Refresher courses with student who been diving since 1969. Old days no gauge,octo.
method 2 also an options if you running OOA with exprienced diver who doesn't believed octopus.

To get 5 point during IDC or IE not by choose the method but it's go by how you demonstrate the skill, organizing the group and etc...most important don't over confidence.

Practice is key points to become safe diver. I hope this might help.

Safe diving

Zaha
Last edited by Nizaha on Sun May 20, 2007 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
nizaha
 
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Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#22  Postby adik » Sun May 20, 2007 9:28 am

Sorry Nizaha... Out of topic sikit...

About the IDC ... its an example i gave, to know how to react if OOA occured.

No intend to become profesional. The reason Im asking this was bcoz I had a debate if friend on this issue. We asked our intructor his opinion, and he gave his, and now I am asking you guyz your thoughts. So thank you for the inputs.

Again sorry to all.  
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#23  Postby SeaDemon » Sun May 20, 2007 11:49 am

Nizaha is right. Even here in Malaysia when I first started to dive back in 1982, there was no such thing as a BCD, recreational dive planner, octopus and air gauge. The only way for you to know that you are out of air is when you are actually out of air. Buddy breathing was done using the same regulator that you're breathing from. Even if the new school of diving prescribes giving octopus to the OOA diver, I still prefer giving my primary regulator for 2 simple reasons: 1) it's the quickest way to do it, meaning it may seem like a relief and assurance to the OOA diver by getting my "working" regulator fast, and, 2) I don't have to spend time fiddling looking for the octopus while the OOA diver panics and not only yanks my regulator from my mouth, but also my mask in the process.

I have seen a panic-striken diver yank a mask off another diver's face...and it was during a night dive.
SeaDemon
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#24  Postby adik » Sun May 20, 2007 12:36 pm

TQ SD for sharing me the experiences you got..

Its not easy to handle a case like this and appreciate your advise in this.  ;) ;)
adik
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#25  Postby SeaDemon » Sun May 20, 2007 12:45 pm

TQ SD for sharing me the experiences you got..

Its not easy to handle a case like this and appreciate your advise in this.  ;) ;)


Most welcome, bro. We're here to share...I'm no better than you. ;)
SeaDemon
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#26  Postby nizaha » Sun May 20, 2007 9:53 pm

Sorry Nizaha... Out of topic sikit...

About the IDC ... its an example i gave, to know how to react if OOA occured.

No intend to become profesional. The reason Im asking this was bcoz I had a debate if friend on this issue. We asked our intructor his opinion, and he gave his, and now I am asking you guyz your thoughts. So thank you for the inputs.

Again sorry to all.  


No worries

Experience is a hard teacher because he gives the test first, the lesson afterwards!

Safe diving

Zaha
nizaha
 
Topic author

Re: questions on primary and secondary regulator

Post Number:#27  Postby SeaDemon » Mon May 21, 2007 12:56 am

Zaha...I like  ;) ;D [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
SeaDemon
 
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