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Basic discussion on Nitrox

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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#31  Postby babyFin » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:40 am

but then how often u manage to use EAN for ur dive?
rating out of 10 dives..
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#32  Postby dp » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:45 am

babyFiN wrote:but then how often u manage to use EAN for ur dive?
rating out of 10 dives..



diving with nitrox is only limited to the amount of RMs u have in ur pockets, BF..

at RM35 per bottle, its not exactly friendly to your pockets if u do nitrox for all 10 dives.

what i would normally do is : dive nitrox (a bottle or two) on the last day.

less lethargic when driving back to KL. :)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#33  Postby babyFin » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:48 am

deepblu wrote:
babyFiN wrote:but then how often u manage to use EAN for ur dive?
rating out of 10 dives..



diving with nitrox is only limited to the amount of RMs u have in ur pockets, BF..

at RM35 per bottle, its not exactly friendly to your pockets if u do nitrox for all 10 dives.

what i would normally do is : dive nitrox (a bottle or two) on the last day.

less lethargic when driving back to KL. :)


but wat i can see..that not all divecentre got nitrox rite?
for instant in salang..only B&J and Diveasia.. correct me if im wrong..
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#34  Postby putradiver » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:55 am

babyFiN wrote:
deepblu wrote:
babyFiN wrote:but then how often u manage to use EAN for ur dive?
rating out of 10 dives..



diving with nitrox is only limited to the amount of RMs u have in ur pockets, BF..

at RM35 per bottle, its not exactly friendly to your pockets if u do nitrox for all 10 dives.

what i would normally do is : dive nitrox (a bottle or two) on the last day.

less lethargic when driving back to KL. :)


but wat i can see..that not all divecentre got nitrox rite?
for instant in salang..only B&J and Diveasia.. correct me if im wrong..



Yup, I think u r right but u may get it also at B&J at ABC or Bali Hai at Penuba.

Hopefully one day more operators will offer Nitrox.
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#35  Postby dp » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:59 am

putradiver wrote:
babyFiN wrote:
deepblu wrote:
babyFiN wrote:but then how often u manage to use EAN for ur dive?
rating out of 10 dives..



diving with nitrox is only limited to the amount of RMs u have in ur pockets, BF..

at RM35 per bottle, its not exactly friendly to your pockets if u do nitrox for all 10 dives.

what i would normally do is : dive nitrox (a bottle or two) on the last day.

less lethargic when driving back to KL. :)


but wat i can see..that not all divecentre got nitrox rite?
for instant in salang..only B&J and Diveasia.. correct me if im wrong..



Yup, I think u r right but u may get it also at B&J at ABC or Bali Hai at Penuba.

Hopefully one day more operators will offer Nitrox.


dare i dream?

here's to the day DCs offer nitrox for free (like bali - hehehe).
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#36  Postby babyFin » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:04 am

somehow..some places offer EAN and normal at the same price rite..?
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#37  Postby putradiver » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:09 am

babyFiN wrote:somehow..some places offer EAN and normal at the same price rite..?


Haven't come across in Malaysia yet.  I think its due to lack of DC offering the facilitiy and the demand from the divers itself..  If more divers using Nitrox, maybe it will.... Another thing to be blame is the cost of the O2 itself  :(
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#38  Postby John F SeaDemon » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:42 am

After reading through ALL the posts, can I, as moderator of this thread, clear some misconceptions that have been posted here?

First of all, Enriched Air, EAN, Nitrox, NOAA I or NOAA II, or by whatever name it comes with, DOES NOT increase bottom times.  That is why, although it is written in some manuals as EXTENDED BOTTOM TIME, what it actually does is prolong your NO-DECOMPRESSION LIMITS.

If you are a gas guzzler who can finish a single cylinder at 30m in 30 minutes, you will finish a single cylinder of EAN32 in the same time.  Whether it actually reduces fatigue is still subjective. A study by the UKHMS conducted on 20 divers using NOAA I (EAN32) and normal compressed air at random in unmarked cylinders, majority of those using the enriched mix didn't notice any change to their fatigue level, while those diving air thought they felt better because they thought they were diving the Nitrox mix.  Fatigue level is also subject to your body's tolerance on the activities that you have done prior to the diving itself.

For recreational diving, your BEST MIX will limit your depth dive. But you will be able to wait to photograph that hiding crab longer than those diving on normal compressed air.

For technical diving, it helps off-gas the Nitrogen bubbles in the bloodstream to reduce the chances of getting the "bends", and not totally eradicating the chance of getting one.

Using twins for Nitrox? The NASA divers use Nitrox twins. But why do you want to stay down longer than single cylinder divers and end up alone down there?  Secondly, you will be adding up your Oxygen Toxicity Unit and percentage of Central Nervous System disorder by overdosing on hyperoxic mix.

Please understand the fundamentals of recreational diving first before you venture into something out of the norm, and do not be pressured by peers to take up something without understanding both benefits and dangers of doing something, just because it is trendy to do so.

Yes, call me killjoy or prude.

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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#39  Postby putradiver » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:58 am

Forgive me guys for not noticing it.  Yes you are right SD. Nitrox doesn't extend your bottom time but it only extend your no decompresion time limit at that depth but it also has other factors to be considered which your OTUs.  Although Nitrox can reduce DCS by applying less Nitrogen in the body but with the increase of O2 intake at depth, it is more riskier and untolerable for mistakes.

Understand the fundementals!!
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#40  Postby Ery » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:17 am

SeaDemon wrote:After reading through ALL the posts, can I, as moderator of this thread, clear some misconceptions that have been posted here?

First of all, Enriched Air, EAN, Nitrox, NOAA I or NOAA II, or by whatever name it comes with, DOES NOT increase bottom times.  That is why, although it is written in some manuals as EXTENDED BOTTOM TIME, what it actually does is prolong your NO-DECOMPRESSION LIMITS.

If you are a gas guzzler who can finish a single cylinder at 30m in 30 minutes, you will finish a single cylinder of EAN32 in the same time.  Whether it actually reduces fatigue is still subjective. A study by the UKHMS conducted on 20 divers using NOAA I (EAN32) and normal compressed air at random in unmarked cylinders, majority of those using the enriched mix didn't notice any change to their fatigue level, while those diving air thought they felt better because they thought they were diving the Nitrox mix.  Fatigue level is also subject to your body's tolerance on the activities that you have done prior to the diving itself.

For recreational diving, your BEST MIX will limit your depth dive. But you will be able to wait to photograph that hiding crab longer than those diving on normal compressed air.

For technical diving, it helps off-gas the Nitrogen bubbles in the bloodstream to reduce the chances of getting the "bends", and not totally eradicating the chance of getting one.

Using twins for Nitrox? The NASA divers use Nitrox twins. But why do you want to stay down longer than single cylinder divers and end up alone down there?  Secondly, you will be adding up your Oxygen Toxicity Unit and percentage of Central Nervous System disorder by overdosing on hyperoxic mix.

Please understand the fundamentals of recreational diving first before you venture into something out of the norm, and do not be pressured by peers to take up something without understanding both benefits and dangers of doing something, just because it is trendy to do so.

Yes, call me killjoy or prude.

I am a scared diver (and cheap too).


First and most notably thru my Naui Nitrox certfication, I was understand that nitrox allows divers to extend their BOTTOM TIME and enjoy LONGER DIVES without having a required decompression obligation. For example, a diver making an initial dive to 27 meters (90feet) using air would have a maximum DIVE TIME of 25 minutes on the NAUI Dive tables. The same diver diver using a nitrox mix with 36% O2 (EAN36) would have a maximum DIVE TIME of 50 minutes on the NAUI EAN 36 Dive tables. Using the Naui Reduced Gradient Bubble Model (RGBM) Tables, the diver would have 25 minutes if using air and 46 minutes if using EAN36.
Looking at typical recretional dive profile, lets compare a series of two dives:
One diver is breathing air and the other diver is breathing EAN36. The first dive is to 24 meters (80feet) for 30 minutes. After one hour surface interval, the second dive will be to 17 meters (55feet).
Diver one using air and Naui Dive tables, emerges from the first dive with a letter group of G. One hour later, entering the water as an "F diver", the diver has an adjusted maximum DIVE TIME of 19 mins for the 17 meters (55feet) dive. If the diver is using NAUI RGBM tables, he has a maximum DIVE TIME of 55 minutes for the second dive.
Diver two, using EAN36 and Naui EAN36 Dive tables, finishes the first dive with letter group of F. One hour later, the diver begins the second dive as an "E diver". The diver has and adjusted maximum DIVE TIME of 62 minutes for her 17 meters (55 feet) dive. If using the NAUI RGBM EAN36 tables, the diver would have a maximum DIVE TIME of 115 minutes!
On the second dive, the diver using enriched air nitrox has 43 minutes advantage over the diver using air if using the NAUI dive tables or a 60 minutes advantage if using NAUI RGBM tables.


anyone pls explain on these... [-( [-( [-(
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#41  Postby HoleMaster » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:57 am

My fellow Forumers, pls dont get too technical on these Nitrox topic. It was supposed to be "basic discussion". The purpose is to give an overview what are the benefits of Nitrox in layman terms.....so ppl like babyfina and others could understand.

Im no Nitrox instructor but from what ive read manuals from TDI, PSAI and NAUI..in layman terms Nitrox diving:
-Provides longer/extended/extra (those words gives same meaning for layman) bottom times due to the extra o2 content as such increasing your Non Decompression Limits (NDL). The main culprit in recreational diving is the N2 content, as such ur NDL is limited.

- However there is a trade off. Since Nitrox has more o2 content, u need to monitor ur depth. If u breach the recommended depth (they call it Maximum Operating Depth) it can be fatal due to o2 toxidity

- So when people say they could stay longer because they consumes lesser air when breathing nitrox, that is wrong. At a given 11 litre bottle, If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.

Others pls add on in layman terms or instructors pls correct me if im wrong.....
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#42  Postby kimseng the maverick rogue » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:07 am

ery,
what you mean and what SD said has the same meaning only the engrland term use larr.

what i think SD trying to say is that you don't consume less air which = more bottom time.
but rather the maximum allowable bottom time within the NDL is extended.

sorry if my england not good also and give wrong info
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#43  Postby babyFin » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:12 am

:downtown: :downtown: :downtown: -nt-

thanx holemaster!, ery.. putradiver, and SeaDemon too..

right, as said by holemaster, this is just a discussion for people like me to go through, understand and get some picture on the EANx..Nitrox.. and wat so ever..

I just read read read..its good to have such discussion so that u will know what u think u know, but u didnt instead.. need not to create argument which can bring to war  :icon_tongue: .. for its a healthy arguments, yes its good.. can gain more knowledge.
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#44  Postby kimseng the maverick rogue » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:21 am

no war  :icon_rr:

anyway,
overall i'm an advocate of nitrox. it's got risk surely but it's manageable risk.
and the contingecy level these days are much much lower that when i initially started....
proper education will highlight these. but if ur looking for feedback it you should do the course. then i'll say do it. but self discipline must be excersied as there is a bit more of risk involved.
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#45  Postby Spazm » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:03 am

kimseng wrote:one more thing to add to all the above comments....
nitrox usually cost only 10-20 more...
i'll pay for it cause i run less risk of DCS.  ;)
but watch you O2 partial pressure though


I do not think Nitrox reduce the risk of DCS...:)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#46  Postby kimseng the maverick rogue » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:08 am

Spazm wrote:
kimseng wrote:one more thing to add to all the above comments....
nitrox usually cost only 10-20 more...
i'll pay for it cause i run less risk of DCS.  ;)
but watch you O2 partial pressure though

I do not think Nitrox reduce the risk of DCS...:)



What i meant was in comparison with air at the same depth and bottom time
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#47  Postby Spazm » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:21 am

kimseng wrote:
Spazm wrote:
kimseng wrote:one more thing to add to all the above comments....
nitrox usually cost only 10-20 more...
i'll pay for it cause i run less risk of DCS.  ;)
but watch you O2 partial pressure though

I do not think Nitrox reduce the risk of DCS...:)



What i meant was in comparison with air at the same depth and bottom time



It might reduce the effect of narcosis..but certainly not DCS...:) again..it is debatable..:)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#48  Postby kimseng the maverick rogue » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:30 am

Spazm wrote:
kimseng wrote:
Spazm wrote:
kimseng wrote:one more thing to add to all the above comments....
nitrox usually cost only 10-20 more...
i'll pay for it cause i run less risk of DCS.  ;)
but watch you O2 partial pressure though

I do not think Nitrox reduce the risk of DCS...:)



What i meant was in comparison with air at the same depth and bottom time



It might reduce the effect of narcosis..but certainly not DCS...:) again..it is debatable..:)




well the N2 absorbtion will be less that's for sure. risk of bend is also lowered...
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#49  Postby avidiver » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:33 am

This is a really good discussion platform.  I first learn a little about nitrox while doing the OW course last time and have been pondering about having the course in order to dive using nitrox as  it has higher oxygen content, thus reducing the nitrogen narcosis effect given the limitation of depth allowed based on the table.  Now, just confirmed my Nitrox course next week! Looking forward to dive nitrox with you all next time :)

Kudos to SD, Putradiver, holemaster and ery for sharing their knowledge in this field !!!  Look forward to learn more from sifu sifu here :)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#50  Postby putradiver » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:41 am

avidiver wrote:This is a really good discussion platform.  I first learn a little about nitrox while doing the OW course last time and have been pondering about having the course in order to dive using nitrox as  it has higher oxygen content, thus reducing the nitrogen narcosis effect given the limitation of depth allowed based on the table.  Now, just confirmed my Nitrox course next week! Looking forward to dive nitrox with you all next time :)

Kudos to SD, Putradiver, holemaster and ery for sharing their knowledge in this field !!!  Look forward to learn more from sifu sifu here :)


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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#51  Postby dp » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:51 am

SeaDemon wrote:After reading through ALL the posts, can I, as moderator of this thread, clear some misconceptions that have been posted here?

First of all, Enriched Air, EAN, Nitrox, NOAA I or NOAA II, or by whatever name it comes with, DOES NOT increase bottom times.  That is why, although it is written in some manuals as EXTENDED BOTTOM TIME, what it actually does is prolong your NO-DECOMPRESSION LIMITS.

If you are a gas guzzler who can finish a single cylinder at 30m in 30 minutes, you will finish a single cylinder of EAN32 in the same time.  Whether it actually reduces fatigue is still subjective. A study by the UKHMS conducted on 20 divers using NOAA I (EAN32) and normal compressed air at random in unmarked cylinders, majority of those using the enriched mix didn't notice any change to their fatigue level, while those diving air thought they felt better because they thought they were diving the Nitrox mix.  Fatigue level is also subject to your body's tolerance on the activities that you have done prior to the diving itself.

For recreational diving, your BEST MIX will limit your depth dive. But you will be able to wait to photograph that hiding crab longer than those diving on normal compressed air.

For technical diving, it helps off-gas the Nitrogen bubbles in the bloodstream to reduce the chances of getting the "bends", and not totally eradicating the chance of getting one.

Using twins for Nitrox? The NASA divers use Nitrox twins. But why do you want to stay down longer than single cylinder divers and end up alone down there?  Secondly, you will be adding up your Oxygen Toxicity Unit and percentage of Central Nervous System disorder by overdosing on hyperoxic mix.

Please understand the fundamentals of recreational diving first before you venture into something out of the norm, and do not be pressured by peers to take up something without understanding both benefits and dangers of doing something, just because it is trendy to do so.

Yes, call me killjoy or prude.

I am a scared diver (and cheap too).


You no killjoy nor prude, SD.

I would say it as a timely reminder for the rest of us how diving with Nitrox should be taken seriously, as the oxygen toxicity one gets upon breaching the MOD is no light matter.
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#52  Postby Ery » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:10 pm

HoleMaster wrote:My fellow Forumers, pls dont get too technical on these Nitrox topic. It was supposed to be "basic discussion". The purpose is to give an overview what are the benefits of Nitrox in layman terms.....so ppl like babyfina and others could understand.

Im no Nitrox instructor but from what ive read manuals from TDI, PSAI and NAUI..in layman terms Nitrox diving:
-Provides longer/extended/extra (those words gives same meaning for layman) bottom times due to the extra o2 content as such increasing your Non Decompression Limits (NDL). The main culprit in recreational diving is the N2 content, as such ur NDL is limited.

- However there is a trade off. Since Nitrox has more o2 content, u need to monitor ur depth. If u breach the recommended depth (they call it Maximum Operating Depth) it can be fatal due to o2 toxidity

- So when people say they could stay longer because they consumes lesser air when breathing nitrox, that is wrong. At a given 11 litre bottle, If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.

Others pls add on in layman terms or instructors pls correct me if im wrong.....


ai ai sir...  :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut:
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#53  Postby dp » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:32 pm

HoleMaster wrote:If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.



Holey... how u know what a cow's SAC is like ar?  ;)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#54  Postby Spazm » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:50 pm

deepblu wrote:
HoleMaster wrote:If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.



Holey... how u know what a cow's SAC is like ar?  ;)


He prolly brought one down before..:)..and tried to milk her....hahaha..
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#55  Postby HoleMaster » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:30 pm

Spazm wrote:
deepblu wrote:
HoleMaster wrote:If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.



Holey... how u know what a cow's SAC is like ar?  ;)


He prolly brought one down before..:)..and tried to milk her....hahaha..


hehehehe brought down a small cow before....:)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#56  Postby dp » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:29 pm

HoleMaster wrote:
Spazm wrote:
deepblu wrote:
HoleMaster wrote:If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.



Holey... how u know what a cow's SAC is like ar?  ;)


He prolly brought one down before..:)..and tried to milk her....hahaha..

ish ish ish.. and i thot he was ur wingman... ;) ;) ;)



hehehehe brought down a small cow before....:)
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#57  Postby Ery » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:34 pm

HoleMaster wrote:
Spazm wrote:
deepblu wrote:
HoleMaster wrote:If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.



Holey... how u know what a cow's SAC is like ar?  ;)


He prolly brought one down before..:)..and tried to milk her....hahaha..


hehehehe brought down a small cow before....:)


:laughing4: :laughing4:
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#58  Postby jgshuwei » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:32 pm

What SD said is what I'm trying to say here but I'm late again.  :icon_tongue: :icon_tongue: :icon_tongue:

Agreed with the term longer NDL but not longer bottom time.
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#59  Postby John F SeaDemon » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:05 pm

ery wrote:
HoleMaster wrote:My fellow Forumers, pls dont get too technical on these Nitrox topic. It was supposed to be "basic discussion". The purpose is to give an overview what are the benefits of Nitrox in layman terms.....so ppl like babyfina and others could understand.

Im no Nitrox instructor but from what ive read manuals from TDI, PSAI and NAUI..in layman terms Nitrox diving:
-Provides longer/extended/extra (those words gives same meaning for layman) bottom times due to the extra o2 content as such increasing your Non Decompression Limits (NDL). The main culprit in recreational diving is the N2 content, as such ur NDL is limited.

- However there is a trade off. Since Nitrox has more o2 content, u need to monitor ur depth. If u breach the recommended depth (they call it Maximum Operating Depth) it can be fatal due to o2 toxidity

- So when people say they could stay longer because they consumes lesser air when breathing nitrox, that is wrong. At a given 11 litre bottle, If u breathe like a cow on normal tank definately u would breathe the same on nitrox.

Others pls add on in layman terms or instructors pls correct me if im wrong.....


ai ai sir...  :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut: :icon_salut:


The confusion here normally lies in the use of the term "bottom time". In your logbook bottom time means the time you spend from descend to the maximum depth achieved/planned during the dive, until when the diver leaves the bottom for safety stop.

Therefore, scuba diving speaking, I prefer not to use the term increased BOTTOM TIME for nitrox diving. As you can see, Ery and a few others are already confused. What Ery has described from the NAUI manual he got last month is the extended NDL as opposed to extended Bottom Time. Breathing Nitrox does not make you stay longer underwater: IT MERELY ALLOWS YOU TO STAY LONGER AT A GIVEN DEPTH.

If your normal bottom time (dive time) on air is 45 minutes, when everything remains at an equilibrium, your Nitrox dive will last the same duration.

So this talk about longer bottom time is purely hogwash.
-If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying-
John F SeaDemon
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Re: Basic discussion on Nitrox

Post Number:#60  Postby Ery » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:11 pm

SeaDemon wrote:

IT MERELY ALLOWS YOU TO STAY LONGER AT A GIVEN DEPTH



That's the right one! Cheers GURU!  :smileinbox:
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