The deceased was the husband to a friend's friend and this friend wants to know if scuba diving is really dangerous.

SeaDemon...i think u urself can give a correct answer to your fren.....u r more xperiance maa....

sepet : Like sicko said, it comes down to the individual diver. Bill Bernbach once said "You cannot sell to a man who isn't listening"

i'm agree wif u

A measured response from Quero.

It seems simple to me:

- Spear fishing in Marine Parks is illegal. Anyone doing it should be reported to the proper authorities. Exercise your economic power - if you see operators that condone spear fishing in Marine Parks, DON'TDIVE WITH THEM
- Given that a lot of divers go to the Marine Parks off the East coast to dive, then spear fishing in those areas is selfish, dangerous and IMHO stupid.

Anyone got a problem with that?

I have reported the contents of this thread to the head of the Enforcement division at the Department of Marine Parks. He has asked me to express his thanks to contributors, and has promised to get his staff to monitor the problem - they have been focussing on Tenggol and have carried out three operations there this year. He has also asked me to confirm to readers that the following islands are Marine Parks (it's more than I thought!!):

Pulau Redang
Pulau Perhentian Kecil
Pulau Perhentian Besar
Pulau Lang Tengah
Pulau Susu Dara
Pulau Lima
Pulau Ekor Tebu
Pulau Pinang
Pulau Nyireh
Pulau Tenggol
Pulau Kapas
Pulau Tioman
Pulau Labas
Pulau Sepoi
Pulau Gut
Pulau Tokong Bahara
Pulau Chebeh
Pulau Sembilang
Pulau Seri Buat
Pulau Rawa
Pulau Rawa
Pulau Hujung
Pulau Tengah
Pulau Besar
Pulau Tinggi
Pulau Aur
Pulau Pemanggil
Pulau Harimau
Pulau Goal
Pulau Mensirip
Pulau Sibu
Pulau Sibu Hujung
Pulau Mentinggi
Pulau Kaca
Pulau Lembu
Pulau Payar
Pulau Segantang
Pulau Kuraman
Pulau Rusukan Besar
Pulau Rusukan Kechil

Julian

I really want to point out the exact DC that spearfishes in Perhentian. But  I also wanna be anonymous. Talk about having some balls. Can I PM someone?

I'm glad many of you share my thoughts & all this time I thought I had been battling alone together with a handful of operators who supported me in my crusade. The best person to ask is Kevin Hiew of WWF who was the former head of Marine Parks. He apprehended & prosecuted one owner of a Redang resort for spearhunting & put them in jail. Kudos to him & not me as I'm merely learning by example. If we as instructors cannot set good examples, what would the student be learning? I often wonder how they(perpetrators) manage to sustain a dive business by bringing their divers out hunting when most of our islands in the East Coast had already been gazetted as marine parks, save for some offshore places like Jubilee Shoals off Kuantan & Batu Berhala, off Nenasi.

When I was invited on a trip in 1997 to Pulau Sembilan, I was told it was a shooting trip. Being all excited, I packed my camera, housing, strobe & off I went. Little did I know that their definition of shooting was actually spearhunting when we got out there to the islands. Out of the 13 divers on board, there were 14 spearguns, all pneumatic-powered ones. I didn't have a choice to turn back as they concealed their weapons until we got to the dive site. Either I stayed on the boat & get sick or dive with them. And so I got in. I witnessed how they mercilessly cordoned both entrance of a crevice to fire at all the sweetlips in it & took home 2 of the largest Coleman iceboxes filled to the brim. It was the saddest day of my life. I don't believe that place had been gazetted as a marine park yet due to the 4 fishing associations' stronghold in the area. I couldn't do anything about it except to voice it out to them that it's cruel & it's a terrible sport. Only one diver had a speargun license. I told myself then, I would never allow anyone to spearhunt on my trips.

Of the cases that I had documented, the most famous one, although it was never revealed in Malaysian newspapers as spearhunt related death, was that of a namely person (ex-minister) who died while diving in Papua New Guinea. He surfaced & died of CAGE, Cerebral Arterial Gas Embolism. The unofficial story related to me by his son, was that they were spearhunting & at 30metres, he ran low on air. He signalled to the buddy, who then started the ascent but somehow, he must have shot up to have logged bubbles in his brain. He convulsed & lost consciousness upon reaching surface.

Another case occurred in Tenggol, whereby the entire boat capsized because they failed to heed warning from the island operators. Fortunately, no lives were lost but in almost all of the spearhunting incidents, nothing good came out of them.

Another case off Nenasi involving several hunters, who speared & tied the fish to themselves. A tiger shark appeared & sent everyone in a frenzy. I was called to activate the hyperbaric chambers in Lumut because a few of them were suspected to suffer from DCS later. (The chambers in the naval base is off limits to civillians unless you are referred).

Yet another case, the whole boat was apprehended, everything confiscated, everyone put in jail for a day & everyone was fined because they found one spear but all the spearguns were ditched overboard so none got the death sentence. Only 3 guys were hunting out of the 12 divers.

Oh let me dig my archives for more but this may seem too interesting for some so let's see if time permits.

I believe Demon has put things in perspective as a license holder & despite whatever responsibilities one upholds, it is NOT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL when it comes to diving within a group. The law does NOT segregate you as an INNOCENT PARTY IF YOU ARE FOUND TO BE IN THE SAME BOAT AS THE PERSON IN POSSESSION OF THE FIREARM. YOU ARE LIABLE whether you like it or not.

Judging by some of the response in this thread, I gather that something happened in the recent trip & this incident is linked either directly or indirectly with the trip. Well, I'm not going pass a comment because I wasn't there but I would like to remind all dive professionals that you have a decree to uphold your integrity & your practices to not put your students/divers in jeopardy with someone who is in the possession of a firearm. The law doesn't define who is right or wrong when they find you on the same boat. All of you are cohorts. I hope this would be a good enough reason for you to stand up for your rights.

And to you xr250dude, I hope you would be more respectful when you talk in this forum & not pick out a quote by calling people names (joker) when you are directly referring to my quote & talking down to people just because you are masked under a nickname. This forum is a real community & we intend to stay as such, sharing & learning as we go along, not running others down just because you think you are more qualified than others. I may be vocal but I'm not vocal without evidence. If those listed would like to come in here to declare that they do not practice spearhunting in marine parks anymore, then please get them to do so but in the years that I've been diving, I have given them countless reminders already & they know me & my stand.

Divers, the more you voice out against a crime, the more people will know about a crime & if they choose to continue to do anything illegal whatever it may be, one day, the law will catch up on them. You are the voice so why be silenced by fear?
 

It took me nearly 1 hour to read this whole thread, after missing forum for 1 week. Very interesting & pontentially life saving topic, with so much to learn.

Thank you for all who contributed, I learned.

I am totally against spear fishing, regardless is at open sea or at marine park. If you want to eat fish, just go make a trip to market & buy, where should you risking yourself & others life doing so underwater? God designed me to be land living ape, going underwater in nature is already dangerous. Well, many would not agree with me, and chances are they have statistic or story or even SOP to support why spear fishing is a "good & safe" sport.

The base line is for me now is simple:
IF TODAY I SEE ANOTHER ONE OF MY FELLOW DIVER IN THE SAME BOAT WITH SPEAR GUN, I WILL JUST ASK THE DC TO TURN BACK TO ISLAND OR GET ME ANOTHER BOAT.

Pummkin, I could not agree more with you. Thanks for the sharing of stories. 

So, you can spear anywhere you like...just stay away from the Marine Parks.  That is what I have been harping on in this topic.

I agree with you.

pummkin, I appreciate your writing and the amount of effort you have put in elucidating your experiences with spearos. I can see that you have an axe to grind against unlicensed illegal spearfisherman and justifiably so. I also appreciate the para you dedicated to me. Forumers are all veiled under anonymity, but since the number of active responders are so small and doing the same specialise thing it is not surprising it feels almost communal to some. I must add that to your credit you have fierce fierce supporters/friends, and I mean this in a good way.

I am nevertheless willing to give anonymity up for a civil debate, face to face. I am always respectful when I talk but not necessarily so when I post in a forum. I never shout. I never think I am more qualified than somebody else because what is qualification measured against?However I never post untruths, which to a certain extent was the reason why I used the expletive you mentioned. I apologise if you feel offended but try on my shoes.

For example in an earlier post you wrote,
>For a better understanding of the term, let's call this HUNTING. Hunting using SCUBA is unheard of in developed countries.

This is untrue.

Then came the list. Objectionable to me because firstly you have got one of the names wrong, and what if coincidentally I ran a business with the same name? Secondly, attempting to pour sand into another persons ricebowl is not the way to stop this IMHO however well meaning you may be because who will judge if this response is measured or even the legality of it. Thirdly and most importantly if your idea caught on you may be endangering yourself because these people are without moral fibre and are willing to use illegal arms, almost certainly smuggled in from up north, I would imagine with what other arms have you. Still, I think the best and safest way is to lodge a report and let the authorities do their thing.

My hats off to you madam.

p/s - A little birdie told me about the recent event mentioned which featured a group of illegal spearos including a 14 year old boy. 6 illegal spearguns only 1 confiscated, 5 dumped. In the haste to make an arrest, procedure were not followed, the catch/evidence disappeared in transit and an underaged boy was locked up, all of which are not elements of a good prosecution.

Quero, nice write however there is the other side of the coin. There are many proponents of spearfshing and its nominal impact on ecology. Bloodsport? maybe thats too much of a generalization for fish. As for me I would rather take the easy way out and be blind as to who does the actual killing, whether fish of whatever size is indiscriminately trawled, whether reefs were damaged in the process, whether quotas were exceeded etc.

Yes, dude, bloodsport.

Although there is no ecological impact from the death of a bull in a Spanish bullring (and the meat gets eaten)....
and although there is an overpopulation of deer in northern North America (and the meat gets eaten)....
and despite the fact that there are plenty of tarpon in the Caribbean (and the fish get eaten)....
...the "sports" that result in the deaths of these creatures for the primary pleasure of proving that a human can outwit, outlast, outflank the animal in question does not make it any less a blood sport.

My own brother hunts with a bow and arrow, and his family eats what he takes, but he does it for sport, not necessity, so even that is bloodsport, IMO.

Whatever my feelings in regard to the morality of these blood sports, they are all legal within specifically defined parameters (such as seasons for lobster hunting), and I will defend the right of sportsmen to engage in these activities as long as they do so within the guidelines that local laws stipulate.

'Ignorance is bliss'? If you want to take the position of blind man in regard to where your meals come from, well that's your prerogative, I suppose. As for me, were I a fish eater, I wouldn't eat wild-caught fish at all in view of the various destructive fishing practices you yourself enumerate. My view is that willful ignorance amounts to a sin of omission http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-sin.html .

dude, I will keep this first bit brief as I am reluctant to take this thread off the important topic it addresses.

Are you a Spaniard?

No, I am not. But that is not germane to the thread topic at all.

  Are you an animal rights activist?

No, I am not. Nor is that information germane.

Is this your view then, that it is best to eat cultivated fish or no fish at all?

No, that is not my view. My view is that each person must make an informed decision for her/himself about the food choices s/he makes. In my own case, the choice is 'no fish at all'. For others it is farmed fish only. For yet others, it includes wild-caught fish when caught responsibly. If you are really interested, you might like to check out this website http://www.fishonline.org/ which helps people make informed choices when it comes to eating fish. If you scroll down in that website, you will see that there are hyperlinks to two different lists: 'species to avoid' and 'species to eat'. Unfortunately for those of us in Asia, it is very Euro-centric in that it lists mainly fish found for sale on that continent. But it is a start in educating yourself.

Finally, the topic of this thread is concerned with spear fishing in protected areas, not my eating habits, not my political stances and not my nationality. My own impression of the responses in this thread lead me to a different conclusion than you draw from reading the very same posts. Here's how I read it: although most forumers would not themselves engage in spear fishing, they seem to feel that if the activity is undertaken in a responsible way--that is, away from other water sports areas (such as dive sites), and from boats that are dedicated to fishing trips (rather than from boats mixing spearos with 'regular' divers) they can share the ocean with people who spear on scuba. It seems to me that you are making quite a leap when you state that most forumers assume that all speared fish come from marine parks. Why don't you write a poll and post it? Then we would really know how people view spearfishing: Ban it altogether? Require strict enforcement of fishing areas? Inspect catches? All of these solutions are in place in different parts of the world, so none is untenable.

PS While you may want to justify the exclusion of hunting from a definition of 'bloodsport' by claiming that it adheres to the concept of 'fair chase' but everybody except hunters seems to feel that the following definition more accurately reflects modern societal norms: http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/BLOODSPORT

3. How come the instructor who brought the newbies did not stop them while being in the same boat? Whatever the reason, the instructor who took these open water newbies is at fault and is solely responsible to make sure that spearfishing did not happen! For the instructor to keep silent is to condone such activity which just portrays the instructor to be of poor judgement and irresponsible! For such an incident to happen just tells me that the instructor was involved in this spearfishing directly or indirectly and probably doing it for the money. How low will people stoop for money - willing to put his or her students life in jeopardy? How do we counter such instructors and protect the newbies from such irresponsible ludicrous instructor!

You have the right to be angry and this is only the tip of the iceberg for a lot of you. I have been 'angry' for years and this is no secret to the perpetrators. I have engaged in duels on dive trips and I would defend to death what I believe is violating my right to the ocean life. Instructors who have crossed my path and CROSSED my path would attest to you what I’m talking about. I take it up with the person concerned. If they heed, well and fine. If they don’t, write to them and ask for an explanation but state that silence on their part would render their story being put up for discussion on a forum!

This would be better a avenue for you to direct it at the instructor/instructors/dive leaders who were present on that trip & find out what actually happened in a private message, as what you are doing now (speculating based on hearsay) is very damaging to the people concerned. Don't forget that this is their profession & their future depends upon the business they will get as a trained professional. You must first ascertain what his/her judgment call was based upon & not just speculate & jump to conclusion why he did what he did. Anyone listening to this kind of speculation would be as angry as you are too but it doesn't justify the undeserved reputation-stripping as this.

Everyone who was present on that trip is at fault, not just the instructor but people learn from mistakes. Each dive professional has to make a conscientious judgment call and list down an incident report so that speculations would not mar the sport nor the individual. It’s not about accepting blame or shifting it but to let others learn from the situation and how best to handle it in future.

Blood sport would IMO encompass sport in which an animal is unfairly chased down, often forced to fight back, deliberately wounded then chased again before being killed. Fox hunting, bull fighting, rooster fighting and what have you would probably be in both our list. The Spanish would disagree though, for them it is cultural and the bull has a fighting chance at killing the Matador. Are you a Spaniard?

I draw the line at hunting and IMO hunting, of which spearfishing is a subset does not entail these elements. The chase is fair and there is no needless suffering, no over kill.

It is a blood sport alright. I've seen the fish wriggle & stress to wrestle free, with such an inherent instinct to survive, these poor fish have no chance against powerful pneumatic guns coupled with scuba advantage that cause devastating haemorrhage. At times when these fish are brought up alive, they make bone-chilling grunts as they fight for their last breath for more than an hour before dying. Wouldn't that constitute 'NEEDLESS SUFFERING?' How cruel is that???

One instructor shot a barracuda at 10metre depth but missed the vital point and the fish made a dash into the deep. The 2nd instructor managed to grab onto the tank valve of the 1st instructor but he too, got dragged along. Then the 3rd instructor saw what was happening, grabbed the 2nd instructor’s tank valve and all three of them got towed to 35 metres depth. By then, the barracuda could not tug at the three divers laden with weights and scuba tanks anymore and one could only imagine how it had to surrender its life to three buffoons who thought it was a manly sport to hunt using pneumatic guns and scuba. Well, the upside is, all three of them has retired from teaching.

Spearhunting in a marine park, is cowardly and dastardly as stewards of the reef like us who spend time ‘taming’ the fish, octopus, sharks in the vicinity have spent countless of dives and not to mention resources just so that divers can get to enjoy the marvel of marine interaction at any given dive site.

Have you ever had a Giant Grouper come out to greet you or allow you to photograph it at close range? Have you had octopuses that play games of give and take with its eight arms while you have two hands and bad coordination??? Have you ever encountered a Volkswagen-sized Napoleon Wrasse with eyes as big a saucer, come up to about 2 metres from you while you are documenting stuff on your slate, counting your discoveries, only to have the whole family of them come to check you out too???

Napoleon wrasses survive in a family. When the matriarch is taken out, the rest will just die.......an observation that we, several instructors who patronise Tenggol island, have observed after each time after a spearhunting takes place. We are fed up, picking up dead & floating wrasses with no apparent injuries. We are fed up because we have had to dive & wait for them to recognise us to come near AFTER HUNDREDS OF ATTEMPTS. We are fed up because they all have names & to see them die is something so excrutiatingly painful.

Here, just take a look at what a catch is all about. Then I'll leave it up to the rest to decide if it's a blood sport or not. The person in the picture has given his permission to publish this picture and he too, was an instructor who has now ceased his operation and his destructive practices in marine parks.

pummkin, if you did take the photo and if you witnessed the illegal spearing, this is tenable as evidence in a police report. Did you make a police report, if you did what was the response?

Additionally, you should post the picture uncensored. Photographic evidence far outweigh hearsay provided it is not taken out of context. It would definitely be more effective in convincing cynics like me.

Nothing short of the total banning of fishing in all its  forms will satisfy some especially fish rights activist. With regards to your definition of blood sport, I disagree. If you translate to human terms, death by spear is preferable than death by suffocation which if you think about it is the terminal event for most commercial fish.

A more balanced view on blood sport http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodsport.

in the press

ola all!!

having been away from the forum for so long has its disadvantages it seems..
reading all the postings about spearfishing and irresponsible attitudes of certains divers prompts
me to share this 2 experiences.

1) I was looking for dive gear and went to this dive shop where in the course of looking up stuffs
    i got to talking to one of the partners of the shop.. upon learning i was looking to go diving in
   Aur, i was invited to join their upcoming trip and proceeds to tell me how much he enjoys spearfishing
   when he dives there. Even went to the extend of explaining to me the joys of spearfishing against sports
   fishing. when i told him i dive with ppl like Seademon and Kapalselam and it was drilled into my head that
   spearfishing was illegal, he just laughed and said thats the reason while he doesnt dive with such ppl. I   
   left the shop feeling disgusted.. I have had calls from the diver inviting me to his dives and have   
   consistently rejected the offers. This Dive Shop advertises in MUW extensively.

2) I met up with a dive instructor whom i respect very very much a couple of months ago.. This guy who is 
    so much into eco diving turns around and tells me he is looking for a spear gun and its costing him Rm2K
    and he has to find a way to get it back to the island without anyone knowing.. When i expressed shock
    and concern, the answer i got? " biasalah bro... everyone's doing it..."

Away from the topic some might say... i have had this experience before others would say... the sad part is i waited till now to share this with you guys...

didnt know u back then Uncle....