Author Topic: A very responsible instructor (Read 2845 times)

timyang · « **on:** December 10, 2007, 07:04:25 AM »

I just got back from diving Pulau Sembilan on Kaleebso.

Yes, we found the seahorses. Several, in fact. And yes we got the snaps. (Coming soon.)

But that's not why I am making this post.

At the end of the dive trip, I was surprised to find out that one of the other groups onboard the Kaleebso was a scuba instructor who had brought two under-aged open water student divers and their parents.

This is surprising because:

1. This instructor did not know the area he was diving in.

2. The viz was extremely bad. How bad was the viz?

a. It was so thick on the first day, that we had to ABORT the first dive when we could barely see our hands.

b. Of the six dives I did, I lost my buddies completely TWICE and after looking around I had to ascend on my own.

c. It was so bad that a couple of the qualified divers onboard REFUSED to go diving in the soup.

How responsible do you have to be to bring inexperienced divers on such a trip?

I interviewed the parents and found out that this very responsible instructor did not tell them of the change from Jarak to Sembilan until right before they boarded Kaleebso.

And they had started their classes ONE MONTH before, when everyone already knew that Kaleebso was going to Sembilan and not to Jarak.

How responsible do you have to be to let bad viz diving to be the FIRST DIVING EXPERIENCE of two newbie divers?

How responsible do you have to be to take your student divers to a place where they can lose sight of you?

Want to know who this instructor is?

(Image Removed)

(Name Removed) of Klingon (name place changed), the world's most responsible scuba instructor.

This is his bio from his website at (Website Removed)

Teaching and motivating people from all walks of life had long been (Name Removed) passion. (Name Removed has been diving for many years and became Instructor in year 2004. He started Scuba-Diving Malaysia to help make the dreams of many who wants to be a scuba diver into a reality.

His dedication and commitment to promote continued dive education, his own students have eventually gone on to become Master Scuba Divers, Divemasters and Instructors. Instructor (Name Removed) is known to his student divers as a very patient teacher. You can be assured to receive quality diver training with Instructor (Name Removed).

* PADI Master Instructor
* PADI Specialty Instructor including Deep, Night, Wreck, Enriched Air (Nitrox), Multi Level, Search and Discovery, Underwater Navigator and many more
* Digital Underwater Photography Instructor
* Emergency First Response Instructor Trainer

Contact (details removed).

So what should we do with this kind of responsible instructor?

bijan · « **Reply #1 on:** December 10, 2007, 10:08:56 AM »

tim..pls inform him of this thread..he should have the chance to explain himself

Scuba Dynamics · « **Reply #2 on:** December 10, 2007, 10:22:52 AM »

I agree that such practices should not be condoned as apart from being outright dangerous and will almost certainly put the potential divers off the sport, the instructor should be given a chance to explain / defend himself.

Nitrogen addict · « **Reply #3 on:** December 10, 2007, 10:52:51 AM »

How old are they?? If they are above 10 years old they are not under aged Tim, they are Junior Open Water student.

I am not an Instructor, here are the possibilities.

1. He may not know the area but I think that's the dive operator i.e. Kaleebso to provide him a DM unless other wise

2. Viz bad that's unpredictable. No one can promise good viz something that we cannot control. Sometimes we ( OE ) did open water in a very bad viz, but our instructor will try their best to help the student. http://surfaceintervals.blogspot.com/2005/03/making-best-out-of-whats-available.html#links

As for us we try our best not to do it on LOB, because we don't know that our student might have the motion sickness and vomiting the whole trip and that's the chance that we don't want to gamble. The trip gonna be wasted.

3. Changed of venue from Jarak to Pulau Sembilan does not make any difference because they boarded Kaleebso on the same date and time as promised.

4. (Name Removed) has certified a lot of students and introduced under water world to land walking mortal as I was told. I don't know him personally.

5. Yes preparation maybe one month and now is the school holidays maybe time factor and $$$ money wise that they were doing it during that trip. As all of us aware that only a few places that we go for diving at this time. You dive in Payar Langkawi, east Malaysia like Sipadan, Kapalai or Mabul and the other choice is Kaleebso. If you want to go to Langkawi, easily it will cost RM1,000 for one student plus the transport, hotel, meal and others. Imagine going to east Malaysia. On Kaleebso it only cost RM700.

As Bijan commented, I think we better let (Name Removed) explain himself here.

JD · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2007, 11:23:54 AM »

Agree with the rest of you.Let (Name Removed) give his side of the story. All things happen for a reason......

halimi · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2007, 12:45:17 PM »

My 2 sen:

(1) Between now and Feb / March, there are not a lot of options for locations to do Open Water dives. Personally, Langkawi is my 1st choice now but if for some reason its not possible to do Langkawi, then I would probably consider Pulau Sembilan as well. However, if I'm doing OW in Pulau Sembilan, I think that it's really important to let the students know that visibility sucks (so that they know what to expect and what risks they are taking) and I would strongly suggest either they consider following me to Langkawi (more expensive but viz may be better), or postpone their OW to February and do on the East Coast.

(2) In the PADI Standards, under section "General Standards & Procedures", sub-section "Open Water Training", page 10 (for those of us Instructors using the digital version of the Instructor Manual), it says:

Use discretion to choose an open water site that represents an appropriate
diving environment while offering conditions conducive to completing
required training.

A such, the PADI Standards did not specify what level of visibility is required or recommended for Open Water training. However, it does say that the conditions must be conducive to learning. That's quite subjective really, and it's up to the instructor's judgment if a site is suitable or not.

I personally would not like to teach in bad viz because as Tim correctly said, it's not good to let students experience their first open water in unfavorable conditions. I have met too many people who have never dived pass their Open Water certification, due to bad experience during the course. It's really a pity.

Notwithstanding all of the above, I think it's fair to let the instructor in question offer his side of the story.

ScubaBunny · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2007, 01:12:20 PM »

Thanks TY for your posting.

Agreed that we need to point out the good and d bad of the situation for others to weigh and make their own judgement.

However, every penny has 2 sides. Thus hearing from your side tells d user / customer point of view. But we also do need some feedback from the said instructor. I'd like to hear what is his reasoning for this.

Thanks again TY for ur comments. Users / customers shld be quick to point situations like this esp to encourage diving to be a safe sport for all to enjoy.

bijan · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2007, 01:24:39 PM »

I have emailed the instructor involved..lets wait for his response if he does log in

Adzri · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2007, 01:25:16 PM »

I agreed with the rest to give chance to the instructor to justify his decision bringing the two kids down.

IMHO , I had a feeling, if the kids is not in the position/ fit to dives in those condition, Mr (Name Removed) would not brought them down during the trip .Secondly, I also believed that (Name Removed) don’t want to jeopardizes his image as a dive professional over these two kids certification.

By the way, what are the kids response after the dives???

halimi · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2007, 01:32:36 PM »

Sorry, a bit more to add:

Tim says:

1. This instructor did not know the area he was diving in.

To tell you the truth, I also don't know many of the dive sites that I take my students to, to complete their Open Water training

. So I do the wise thing and ask the local people lah. No shame in doing that what. As long as the site looks OK to me - not too deep i.e. less than 12metres for OW dives 1 & 2, less than 18meters for OW dives 3 & 4, no strong current, it should be fine.

Snafu · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2007, 01:47:19 PM »

10yrs old is call junior Open Water ...hmmmmm so can drink beer & whisky already

Lets see where this thread is leading too...hopefuly we can learn somenthing from it.

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2007, 05:01:42 PM »

Actually I don't think they are kids la. One is 15 and the other is 17. I think the instructors in Singapore fare worse having to do OW courses at Pulau Hantu.

AcId · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2007, 05:12:00 PM »

Quote from: SeaDemon on December 10, 2007, 05:01:42 PM

I think the instructors in Singapore fare worse having to do OW courses at Pulau Hantu.

if only Singapore water is as good as Tioman ppl wont say such thing to us Singaporeans.....

Bones · « **Reply #13 on:** December 10, 2007, 05:38:08 PM »

I was on the boat when the kids were doing their OWD. I am not defending anyone here but I think before anybody want to put up such a post (that looks that may tarnish someone's reputation ) it should be an onus on oneself to at least inform or discuss with the person about your concerns.

1. Yeah, viz was not that great but then viz is not something one can change. And it changed throughout the trip... afternoon and evening dives there were better then when my sis did her AOWD in Perhentian (and at that time viz was 2-3ft). Therefore, even if it was Pulau Jarak, how would you know the viz would be better?

2. We observed that (Name Removed) kept discussing with Khay Lee (out boat captain) on the best spot (i.e. least current and better viz) for him to take his students. Khay Lee even went to the extent to check out the site before the students went in.

This is what I observed and to put such a thread without further clarifying with the person is irresponsible.

Scuba Dynamics · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2007, 06:20:38 PM »

After watching this thread from the start, I believe that it should be closed & removed completely as it strongly consitutes disparage, in spite of what happened, and it is not for us to be the judge and jury to decide on this instructor's actions.

I stress here that by virtue of being in the same industry, I MIGHT have met him but cannot say that I know him and neither am I supporting nor condemning him for his actions, be it right or wrong.

Snafu · « **Reply #15 on:** December 10, 2007, 07:35:18 PM »

Quote from: AcIt on December 10, 2007, 05:12:00 PM

if only Singapore water is as good as Tioman ppl wont say such thing to us Singaporeans.....

I have dived in Singapore water & knows about the visibility there.....agree that you dont have much choice as us malaysian.

Please come to malaysia for your nitrogen fix & bring more divers

As for the this thread, I woud like to keep it open & to have good discussion for us to learn & we can look into better option when facing this kind of situation.

I have ask 1 of the moderator to take necessary action.

Keep the clean discussion coming.

Thanks.

BubbleBeaver · « **Reply #16 on:** December 10, 2007, 08:01:20 PM »

I've removed the name of the Instructor in question. This is indeed an interesting topic. However, I agree with Scuba Dynamics that this may constitute disparaging the credibilty and reputation of a fellow diver. We're here to learn and not to judge. As always there are two sides of the story and the vast majority have not been there to witness any wrongdoings (if any), therefore we should refrain from making judgements untill both sides are heard.

Having said that, my 2 cents is that as long as the instructor has adequate control over his students (albeit in bad visibility) and over any situation during training dives, should be ok.

About the age of the students, has this been verified that they were below 10 years old? If they were, then it would have been grossly negligent to ignore the the standards that have been set by the training organisation and should be reported directly to them.

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #17 on:** December 10, 2007, 09:31:12 PM »

The students in question are teenagers as I have mentioned somewhere above.

It is up to the instructor's discretion, and with a small group of only two students, with the advice of the vessel's captain on the tidal conditions etc, I thought it was okay.

There are some instructors who do not have much choice when there are people who want to learn diving when they are free...and sometimes that means during the monsoon season and the instructor's left with very little choice.

sukdev · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2007, 11:03:41 PM »

Tuan Tuan dan Puan Puan, ahili ahli MUW sekalian,
Personally,
i think there's excessive over reactions on the part of thread initiator (name not mentioned

).
1) Nobody knew of dive conditions until you are there. Divers are there to dive, instructors are there to conduct open water exercises with their students.
Despite (poor) visibility of dive sites, TY stated that he managed to clock 6 dives. Same goes with dive instructor, somewhat has to do exercise dives with his students which I feel is priority. I am thinking shallower dive sites would improve visiblity (if not much better), hence, did dive instructor took initiatives requesting for a shallower dive sites to do exercises? Having read Bones replying thread that dive instructor had consistently discuss with the Captain pertaining to dive sites and condition. I feel the dive instructor DID!
2) TY (name finally mentioned

) stated that divers were underaged (below the age of 10), later clarified by SeaDemon that student divers were 15 and 17. On one part, thread initiator (this time, name not mentioned

) did not seek facts before commenting - amounting to inaccuracy of details. (Something not relevant to issue here)
3) Tim says:

1. This instructor did not know the area he was diving in.
If Bones was right that dive instructor did seek information from Captain K Lee, I reckon this would suffice to lead a dive.
And did thread initiator (having done 6 dives there) knows the dive sites he was diving?

4) "Perhaps" dive instructor did inform student divers with regards to change of dive venue however students felt this is not important to inform their parents. Also, "perhaps" dive instructor DID request that students to inform their parents, which the diver students did not . Was this question not further probed into why parents wasn;t aware of change to dive venue? Instead, i guess i can use the word 'accuse' the dive instructor of not informing diver students parents. After all, the parents are not the entity involved in here, beside perhaps babysitting their children on this trip.
At the very least, TY should have some courtesy initiating a friendly talk with dive instructor, then, leading to discussions about the dissatisfaction on his observations before blatantly bombarding on dive instructor.
My 2 sen

Vincent · « **Reply #19 on:** December 10, 2007, 11:26:01 PM »

Hi all,

This is an interesting topic. Would certainly like to see reply from the instructor concern and from TY himself too.

I think TY meant well( showing his concern) but wrong execution(act too fast b4 consulting anyone).

Cheers

avidiver · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2007, 11:58:10 PM »

I was there onboard Kaleebso too, but didn't pay much attention to the age group of the students, although they do look more like teenagers to me.

Nonetheless, I did have the opportunity to dive with the Instructor concerned in 2 of my dives there as both my buddy and myself were already ready for early morning dive and coincidently another 2 diver friends and the instructor were planning similar fun dives (without his students).

The instructor took the lead to dive with us and ensure everyone's safety while diving together..... doing what an instructor would do always, he will always keep a watchful eyes on the divers to finish doing whatever they were doing underwater.....photography or spotting sea horses before finning away elsewhere. Perhaps, this maybe his check out dives as well as he only bring his students to do their dives after he did 2 earlier dives with us ( while we were doing our 3rd dives of the day ).

aquaholic · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2007, 12:09:54 AM »

I think we should concentrate on the incident rather than the individuals involved.

My learning from this incident is simply whether "duty of care" has been exercised:
The instructor(or a dive guide) is duty bound to inform divers (doesn't matter whether students) under his care about the conditions of the dive site, making sure the condition is safe and appropriate for the level of divers he is entrusted with.

The divers (or in this case the guardians) should in turn declare to the instructor about their individual level of competence, understand the risk involved, access it with their individual level of experience/capability and make a decision whether to join the dive. Yes, you do make that ultimate decision whether to dive. It is not forced upon you.

If the instructor has done his bit by informing the parents that it will be a safe but crappy dive, and this was agreed by the parents.....then how?

It may not have been an ideal training dive, but was it a safe training dive? As it is, I feel we have inadequate info on the incident. IMHO, better to reserve your judgement till we have more info........

Snafu · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2007, 05:45:33 AM »

I wonder what is the right course of action when conducting OW training when bad visibility or strong current? Abort the dive or take the risk to complete the course? ...is the risk higher with the Instructor or with the student?

As we always talk about dive safety...so lets discuss about it.

IMO the risk is higher with the student as they are new & dont even know the limits or danger of diving... anything goes wrong it will be the student having to pay the most which can include their life.

Quite a number of incident happen already within 2000-2007...Malaysian Water mind you & some of you know about it

How many divers know the real risk of diving when they first take open water course? .... other then the fun..fun...fun, at the rate it is now.... I find taking open water is all about fun putting the safety aside.

HoleMaster · « **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2007, 10:06:24 AM »

This topic looks gonna be very interesting. Just keep it open and general with no names mentioned. All of us can learn from here

penyelamalam · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2007, 02:42:49 PM »

interesting read, what happens to the guy who was named in the first place? he has to come in this forum to explain himself? his reputation surely gets dented by this thread...any actions taken to rectify anything tat is perceived wrong?

mmahfuz · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:12:26 PM »

Excuse me I personally think this thread should be remove due to Instructor Reputation, Kaleebso, Kapten K lee. If the student are Unsatisfied he or she could complain to PADI SSI or NAUI.

For OW the student should have proper knowledge in emergency situation.

I vote remove the thread

Don't simply BANG BANG

kimseng the maverick rogue · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:22:56 PM »

Here's my opinion on this matter.

1.According to the thread starter(TS) viz was bad and conditions were not ideal in conducting the course. But i believe the call had to come from the instructor mentioned on wether to procede or not, as halimi so graciously quoted from the PADI std. Quoting Bones "We observed that (Name Removed) kept discussing with Khay Lee (out boat captain) on the best spot (i.e. least current and better viz) for him to take his students. Khay Lee even went to the extent to check out the site before the students went in." I think the instuctor did everything in his power to find a place which is more conducive.

2.On the underage part, i'm seeing to stories here... being the TS stating them underage and seademon posted 15 and 17.

3.Diving in an unfamiliar area... i don't think we can be the judge of this as seriously... can u read his mind??

Overall we are not to judge on his decisions... He is trained and experienced, if there is any negligence on his part it should be reported to PADI by the students themselves or their parent and not through an internet forum. Ok 1 can argue that their lives are at the instructor hands... I say DUH, of course which is why you need to be confident with the instuctor before doing the course. They are called professionals for a reason!
I agree with the point that this should have been kept in a private discussion with the thread starter and the accused if there are any issues between them.
I vote for this thread to be closed as well.

penyelamalam · « **Reply #27 on:** December 11, 2007, 04:31:07 PM »

i 3rd the motion?? to close this thread and the original thread starter may choose to restart another thread to discuss the matters at hand...

avidiver · « **Reply #28 on:** December 11, 2007, 05:48:52 PM »

To me, the discussion should have been more objective based on facts but not on individual's opinion.

At the same time, who are we to question the capability or professionalism of the instructor based on a person's opinion? I have seen him taking every reasonable duty of care to ensure that his students are diving in safer conditions i.e. by consulting the vessel's captain and doing some check out dive before bringing his student out in the water.

I too support the motion to close the thread and discuss about other issues on safety in diving in another thread.

Snafu · « **Reply #29 on:** December 11, 2007, 06:45:33 PM »

Quote from: avidiver on December 11, 2007, 05:48:52 PM

To me, the discussion should have been more objective based on facts but not on individual's opinion.

At the same time, who are we to question the capability or professionalism of the instructor based on a person's opinion? I have seen him taking every reasonable duty of care to ensure that his students are diving in safer conditions i.e. by consulting the vessel's captain and doing some check out dive before bringing his student out in the water.

I too support the motion to close the thread and discuss about other issues on safety in diving in another thread.

Instructor or not...anyone can question the capability or professionalism of the instructor, dont be shy ...INSTRUCTOR ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT & DO MAKE THE WRONG DECISION

As for closing the thread...nope, we can all learn something from this...example:

1. Most divers thinks instructor r professional ...not true woooOOooOooOo

2. Most divers thinks Divemaster r professional ... not true

3. We below the DM or Inst. level cannot ask question or discuss anything about diving ....not ture

4, Only Inst. & DM can contribute info ... not true

BTW it has nothing to do with Kaleebso...so leave it as that.

As for the said instructor...email been send to him so if he reply, you all will get to know about it..if he dont is his choice too.

Anway..we are not here to discuss about the instructor, just finding better option to make things better in the future.

Author Topic: A very responsible instructor (Read 2845 times)

timyang