Author Topic: A picture or three - humans ?!@! (Read 2736 times)

AyahLang · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2008, 03:45:36 PM »

This is probably more suitable to be in the Environment forum, but since we are talking about something related, take a look at this...

http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/travel-leisure/Our_oceans_are_turning_into_plastic_are_we.shtml

And here's another article, I cut and paste for your reading displeasure..

Drowning in an Ocean of Plastic
Stephen Leahy 06.05.04 | 2:00 AM

The United Nations has turned its attention to the oceans for World Environment Day, and one of the main evildoers is a familiar one -- plastic.

Marine trash, mainly plastic, is killing more than a million seabirds and 100,000 mammals and sea turtles each year, said U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan in a statement.

Plastic bags, bottle tops and polystyrene foam coffee cups are often found in the stomachs of dead sea lions, dolphins, sea turtles and others. The implications have many at the conference concerned. Last April, Dutch scientists released a report on litter in the North Sea and found that fulmars, a type of seagull, had an average of 30 pieces of plastic in their stomachs.

In the sea, big pieces of plastic look like jellyfish or squid, while small pieces look like fish eggs, says Bill Macdonald, vice president of the Algalita Marine Research Foundation, a Long Beach, California-based nonprofit environmental organization.

Macdonald, who is also an underwater filmmaker, said he has seen albatross parents fly huge distances to feed their young a deadly diet of plastic bottle caps, lighters and light sticks.

"The sheer volumes of plastic in oceans are staggering," he said. In recent years Algalita researchers have sampled a huge area in the middle of the North Pacific, and found six pounds of plastic for every pound of algae.

About 250 billion pounds of raw plastic pellets are produced annually worldwide and turned into a tremendous variety of products, from cars and computers to packaging and pens.

About 20 percent of the plastic in the oceans comes from ships or offshore platforms; the rest is blown, washed off the land or intentionally dumped, according to a preliminary report issued April 2004 by the U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy. Not only does plastic kill marine animals that eat it or get tangled in it and drown, but it also damages and degrades their habitat.

Plastic pellets are also magnets for toxic chemicals like DDT and PCBs, becoming, in effect, poison pills. Japanese researchers found that concentrations of these chemicals were as much as a million times higher than in the water. Plastics themselves can leach endocrine-disrupting chemicals like biphenyl A.

Macdonald has come across "snow drifts" of spilled pellets outside plastic product manufacturing plants in Orange County. "It took about three minutes for some of these to wash into a nearby creek during a rain storm," he said.

Most plastics don't biodegrade. Unless removed, they'll remain in the sea for hundreds of years, breaking up into ever-smaller particles. Recently British scientists discovered that microscopic pieces of plastic can be found everywhere in the oceans, even inside plankton, the keystone of the marine food chain.

The scientists also noted that the amount of plastic particles in the oceans has at least tripled since the 1960s. The effect they have on the marine ecosystems is unknown.

Plastic pollution in the oceans is less of an issue to Ransom Myers, a leading fisheries scientist. Myers allows that there might be some unforeseen impact on ocean ecosystems. "Our ability to understand what's going on the oceans is phenomenally poor," he said. "The No. 1 threat to oceans right now is overfishing and habitat destruction by trawling."

In its preliminary report, the U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy said time is running out for America's coasts and oceans. Among its recommendations: establish a National Ocean Council within the White House, stop subsidy programs that encourage overfishing and double investment in ocean research.

Every year we're learning about something bad that's going on in the seas, says Macdonald. "It's just dawning on people that the oceans are in deep trouble."

Mephisto the Heretic · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:29:26 PM »

good discussion.

from the way i see it, keeping the enviroment clean is a maintainance thing.

Its good to do clean ups, but the rubbish will always pile from somewhere, we must do this on a scheduled basis (say once a week).

Own initiative is important, do not care if anyone is doing it or not, the individual must take care of their own discharge, regardless if there is any garbage bin or not. if there is no garbage bin, find one or hold on to your garbage until your find one.

also the most easiest and effective way that i found is not to create garbage in the first place, for example:

if you are using the ATM, dont print a reciept if you dont have to. a lot of atm offer this options nowdays.

if you like to drink a lot of plain water, may i suggest rather than buy a bottle of minaral water everyday, invest in a SIGG bottle and replanish it at home or at the office. A SIGG bottle cost around RM 90, you will break even in 3 month. Mine lasted me for 7 years.

please use the email function or other softcopy transfer method. now days we can do away with fax and hardcopy that waste a lot of paper.

if you have your own personal method, please share with us.

it starts with us...

nanda666 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:48:13 PM »

I was sailing on crude oil tankers for 11 years and when I started out as a cadet, pumping out sludge into the ocean at night was the standard job for the cadets. (Yup..at night

)

do you know how that practice stopped??? It had nothing to do with attitude change or enviroment care.

The changed the rules. By law. And seriously enforced it. But rewarded the ships that complied.
Yup!
There was no overboard piping construction allowed.
There were oil disposal record books.
There were incentives for "green" ships in port. (they paid less port dues!!)

The benefits of doing the right thing was enabling ship owners to save/make more money!!

Maybe that'll work faster to bring about the change. For instance:

1. Dive centers give special deals if we do a day of clean-up. (They get more divers. more $$$)
2. Only eco-friendly operators allowed.
3. Fine for littering imposed and policed like Spore. (See how clean their streets are??)

How..can ah?

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:50:40 PM »

Hmm...have you sailed around Singapore?

Notice how small it is?

Easier to police, isn't it?

nanda666 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:00:38 PM »

Well, seems like environment protection gets a "very positive" response here?????

I think when it comes to environment protection and conservation, the "bambi rule" should be applied. "if you can't say something nice.....don't say nothing at all"

Why discuss what we can't do?

Why tell all the members what we can't do?

Why tell the members what won't work?

It not being a hypocrite if you try your best to help and fail. But not tryin at all? Why?

I'm not saying we'll succeed.....but tak cuba tak tahu kan???

like most of the post from "newbies"...they seem to want to learn and want to help. Why kill the semangat (spirit)?

I don't know.....but don't worry guys....this is nothing new.....Trying to impose SHELL standards with PETRONAS gets the same response most of the time too

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #35 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:04:23 PM »

Sorry but have been diving since 1982 and have been trying looooooooooooooooooooong before you took your first underwater breath.

Look at things realistically. Stop being a global green one-man organisation. Start with yourself first...what have you done? Do you let the tap run while you brush your teeth? Do you not use soap when you shower?

Like Snafu has mentioned in the other discussion: there are 5,398,223 NGOs and GOs fighting for environment..what have THEY achieved? Only 30% of what is contributed actually goes to environmental related stuff. How do I know? I belong to 2 such organisations.

So I'd rather not be a hypocrite and talk about conservation when in the end it is just another hot hot chicken sh-it thing.

nanda666 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:12:32 PM »

Heard that line on the ships tooo!!

Captains and Chief Engineers telling me nothing will change and how they were sailing loooooooooooooooooong before I was even born!!!!

Well,....things changed...drastically.....most of them had to quit!!

I'm not doubting your expertise, your vast experience, knowlegde, know how, skill, talent, etc, etc.

All I'm saying is let the new kids try there best and if they succeed...good for them la!!!

Come on newbies........you think you can save our islands or not?????

Old ideas may have to make way for new one....but we need to young to come up with the new ways la!!!

Mephisto the Heretic · « **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:20:45 PM »

SD and nanda666.

Sorry to b u t t into your intellectual discourse.

as a third party, i can see the both of you have the same objectives, but share different ways and point of view.

i salute you guys for your good intentions.

but rather than arguing who is right and who is wrong (we are not lawyers), try to come to a compromise and if it is not possible, just continue doing what you think is right.

a bit of SD way and a bit of Nanda666 ways, i am sure the world will improve a bit.

what say?

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #38 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 11, 2008, 05:12:32 PM

Heard that line on the ships tooo!!

Captains and Chief Engineers telling me nothing will change and how they were sailing loooooooooooooooooong before I was even born!!!!

Well,....things changed...drastically.....most of them had to quit!!

I'm not doubting your expertise, your vast experience, knowlegde, know how, skill, talent, etc, etc.

All I'm saying is let the new kids try there best and if they succeed...good for them la!!!

Come on newbies........you think you can save our islands or not?????

Old ideas may have to make way for new one....but we need to young to come up with the new ways la!!!

Let me tell you something here.

You seem all eager and all that.

On the other forum, I was a real conservationist bast*rd. Everyone started harping on the Tioman marina issue. I offered my help. Everyone wanted to start a petition going. I asked for their particulars. Do you know how many actually gave out of the 1400 odd members? LESS THAN F***ING 10. The same sh-it happened during the Sipadan barge incident. Who the f*** are we to go around telling others we want this or we want that when others don't even conform to your standards and ideas?

So, start educating those around you first. Don't think big. You cannot apply SHELL standards to PETRONAS cos NOT ALL STANDARDS CAN BE APPLIED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. That is why you see hospitals built using the same blueprints have cracked walls or unserviceable basements. The same goes for conservation.

I have two diver daughters. My father's the bloody Deputy Chairman of Genting Bhd. During one CNY lunch hosed by the late Tan Sri LGT, they served sharks fins soup...not the imitation ones, okay? My daughters refused to eat. When asked, they told those people on their table that sharks are meant to be in the sea, not in a bowl. So everyone on that table stopped eating. Of course we did not get invited the next year, but at least we educated those around us.

When you learn diving, being sensitive to the environment is something you learn naturally, because you develop the love for the sea. But when you return to KL, you don't give a damn about your carbon emissions, the fact that your house is built on what was once lush primary jungle, that the crap you dump goes into what was once a river KL people go picnic in 30 years ago.

So what is your house built from again?

Start small. Start with those around you. I am sure the divers here are aware of what you are trying to push, but don't be pushy.

Ask Henry who I am first.

nanda666 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:30:11 PM »

Quote from: Warhammer 40,0000 on January 11, 2008, 05:20:45 PM

a bit of SD way and a bit of Nanda666 ways, i am sure the world will improve a bit.

what say?

As Metallica would say.......SAD BUT TRUE!!!

have a great weekend guys!!

p.s. I don't eat meat becos I think killing anything (land or sea) isn't required for my survival. Yes...my soap, washing, cleaning liquids are all eco friendly.....doesn't mean I have to get angry with the rest of the world la

IkanBilis · « **Reply #40 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:31:48 PM »

Ok lah Nanda666, we'll support your effort to kill the ghost who dumped sludge a long time ago, that is still poisoning our oceans now...

I'll continue teaching my children to be more environment aware and friendly, and not to dispose waste and rubbish indiscriminately and poison our oceans.

I guess it really make a difference, after ages of poisoning their environment, people in Europe are teaching us to be more aware of our environment, impose bans on hardwood, palm oils etc and in the same time dump more plastic goods, outsource production to Asia, extract natural resources in Asia etc. That way they can keep their environment clean, and let us drown in our own refuse...

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #41 on:** January 11, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 11, 2008, 05:30:11 PM

As Metallica would say.......SAD BUT TRUE!!!

have a great weekend guys!!

p.s. I don't eat meat becos I think killing anything (land or sea) isn't required for my survival. Yes...my soap, washing, cleaning liquids are all eco friendly.....doesn't mean I have to get angry with the rest of the world la

But the moment I say I have to eat fish, you are upset with me. Now, are you using both SHELL and PETRONAS standards here when it comes to me? That's double!

kimseng the maverick rogue · « **Reply #42 on:** January 11, 2008, 06:20:04 PM »

Quote from: Warhammer 40,0000 on January 11, 2008, 05:20:45 PM

SD and nanda666.

Sorry to b u t t into your intellectual discourse.

as a third party, i can see the both of you have the same objectives, but share different ways and point of view.

i salute you guys for your good intentions.

but rather than arguing who is right and who is wrong (we are not lawyers), try to come to a compromise and if it is not possible, just continue doing what you think is right.

a bit of SD way and a bit of Nanda666 ways, i am sure the world will improve a bit.

what say?

i agree with what warhammer has to say above, a bit of both

i share seatimun sentiments as well... been wasting my saliva and increased my blood pressure on barking to people about this issue and damn i'm not that old. at 1 point i totally gave up being a loudspeaker. just don't care larr.... .what they want to do is their on business... but i learnt that action speaks louder than words but by accident actually...
on 1 of my routine of being hero lead dive trips i picked up a coca-cola can just to play with pressure to show off that i can crush it with minimal effort. but then i noticed that the gals (yes gals that's why i did the coca-cola thingie) started picking up stuff thinking its somesort of clean-up cum lazy dive. so the conclusion? managed to impress some chica's and indirectly instill some awareness.

but what nanda is doing should not be put down as well... we need ppl like him who has the enthusiasm to be what we were, we will still need a loudspeaker screaming for us lazy ppl.

think of it this way; nanda = mass advertising, SD = personal touch (which in his case i believe everywhere especially on females

)

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #43 on:** January 11, 2008, 07:50:19 PM »

Wah...very observant la you, Mr KimSeng

I wanna use your avatar for my new t-shirt, can or not?

kimseng the maverick rogue · « **Reply #44 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:07:33 PM »

Quote from: SeaDemon on January 11, 2008, 07:50:19 PM

Wah...very observant la you, Mr KimSeng

I wanna use your avatar for my new t-shirt, can or not?

use larr SD, just make sure u make me 1 as well

Ed_Dman · « **Reply #45 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:54:05 PM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 11, 2008, 03:16:08 PM

Quote from: Ed_Dman on January 11, 2008, 02:46:01 PM

PS. Nanda - Btw, where are you from? Hometown I mean? Just curious (no bad intention)!

from klang.

Oh! Klang ah! Port Klang or Teluk Gadung? Which "Chikuteh" shop, you go to? Which school, Convent or MGS? Just kidding lah, bro! Don't get angry ya. Me from Klang also, maybe can meet up one day for "yam Cha".

Ed.

ScubaBunny · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2008, 09:45:18 PM »

Quote from: SeaDemon on January 11, 2008, 02:53:25 PM

I would go with what BubbleBunny has said - start with ourselves first. Unfortunately, as idealist as we all want to become, not all visitors to islands are divers, and in turn, not all divers are conservationists.

Be realistic, start small.

Sedih ni.. M SCUBABUNNY not bubblebunny la SD..

By d way.. yes.. start small.. like d famous malay proverb.. Skit2 lama2 jadi bukit = Little by little will move mountains.. eh..correct aah..?

D caffeinne stuck longer tis time..

By d way.. all of us have our own way of doing things, as long as we are all DOING something is better den only talk no do and no talk and no actions.. Salut you guys for wanting to change.. Not all divers are conservationalist.. Very true.

John F SeaDemon · « **Reply #47 on:** January 12, 2008, 06:33:26 AM »

Aiyah! Sorry la.

nanda666 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 15, 2008, 03:55:45 PM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 11, 2008, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: nanda666 on January 11, 2008, 01:13:07 PM

1. Are your photos being circulated in schools in Terengganu? Kelantan?
2. Are they being circulated outside the diving community?
3. Practically....20 underwater shots from anyone of Sipadan, Redang, etc...... and I'll be convinced that Malaysian Underwater world is worth saving............What is another 2000 shots and 300 albums of your photos gonna do to help conservation causes?????

Ed, I merely asking answers to the questions above on photography and it's relationship to conservation.....just 4 simple questions. (Based on your tag line)

Dear Ed...you still haven't answered my humble questions or given some further justification of you tag line.....

(For educated discussion purpose only)

Ed_Dman · « **Reply #49 on:** January 15, 2008, 11:33:02 PM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 15, 2008, 03:55:45 PM

1. Are your photos being circulated in schools in Terengganu? Kelantan?
2. Are they being circulated outside the diving community?
3. Practically....20 underwater shots from anyone of Sipadan, Redang, etc...... and I'll be convinced that Malaysian Underwater world is worth saving............What is another 2000 shots and 300 albums of your photos gonna do to help conservation causes?????

Dear Ed...you still haven't answered my humble questions or given some further justification of you tag line..... (For educated discussion purpose only)

Hi Nanda! To answer your questions.

1. Nope! I don't have that kinda fund to do that kinda scale. It is just my personal effort to do what I can, my pictures are in my website for all to see. I don't mind sharing or contributing my shots, if the authority wanna use them for education purposes.
2. Yup, in some way! I have been told by divers, that they often share my pictures with their family and friends (non divers). If you're talking about brochures or flyers, I don't have that kinda fund. I'm doing it on my own and is not funded nor sponsored by anyone.
3. Worth saving or not, it's up to oneself to decide. Such decision can't be force, it should be out of own will. That's why, I believed in education. I've been saying that from the beginning. When I say, "Save Our Ocean & Reefs". It doesn't mean Malaysia's water or Malaysian only. It means the world we live in and by all of us, human. Everyone should do their part! I'm sure your wife is not doing (the turtle conservation) because of the pay or force to do it or for fame and glory. I'm sure, she does it because she wants to and she cares. I'm just trying to do my part! Simple as that!

You can't force someone to stop doing something, but you can only educate them and hope they won't do it anymore!

I hope that answer your questions!

Ed.

nanda666 · « **Reply #50 on:** January 16, 2008, 10:16:08 AM »

It's o.k Ed..

don't think you're getting my point....I'll try one last time....then I'll let this slide....

firstly, your shots are great!!

no denying that fact.

But you're just like any other photographer taking photos. (Everyone circulates photos to their friends..so do I)

I was just making a point that yours or MY photos were not doing MUCH for the reef and corals and we could do more than sitting back and saying "My contribution to saving the planet is these photos".

And for your earlier question.....I'm from La Salle Klang. SPM 1989 batch.

(yup...pretty old already!!

)

Ed_Dman · « **Reply #51 on:** January 16, 2008, 10:43:46 AM »

Quote from: nanda666 on January 16, 2008, 10:16:08 AM

It's o.k Ed..

don't think you're getting my point....I'll try one last time....then I'll let this slide....

firstly, your shots are great!! no denying that fact.

But you're just like any other photographer taking photos. (Everyone circulates photos to their friends..so do I)

I was just making a point that yours or MY photos were not doing MUCH for the reef and corals and we could do more than sitting back and saying "My contribution to saving the planet is these photos".

And for your earlier question.....I'm from La Salle Klang. SPM 1989 batch. (yup...pretty old already!! )

Nanda! I get your point, but you don't seems to get mine. I know, I'm just like any other photographers or like you, sharing our photos with family, friends or the public. That doesn't mean that we are not doing much, we are doing something. Like I said, I'm just trying to do my part and so are others, but what can we do if the authorities or more capable people do not wish to do their parts. I'm more than willing to contribute my photos for education, but I surely can't afford to print thousands of brochures to be distributed. I have written to some, to offer my contribution, but no reply were received. I can only do my part and offer my contribution, but if the local authorities are not willing to do or use my contribution, there's nothing I can do. I'll just have to continue to do my part, on my own!

La Salle boy! SPM 1989! One year younger than me lah, bro! :p

Btw, thanks for the kind words on my shots!

Ed.

nanda666 · « **Reply #52 on:** January 16, 2008, 10:56:59 AM »

No prob dude!!!

now we getting somewhere!! Wil let you know how you can help.....If I need photographers for the conservation programs can contact you ah?

DecLim · « **Reply #53 on:** January 16, 2008, 11:09:05 AM »

Quote from: kimseng on January 11, 2008, 08:07:33 PM

Quote from: SeaDemon on January 11, 2008, 07:50:19 PM
Wah...very observant la you, Mr KimSeng

I wanna use your avatar for my new t-shirt, can or not?

use larr SD, just make sure u make me 1 as well

I thought u'll ask SD to bath with u 1st, hahaha

DecLim · « **Reply #54 on:** January 16, 2008, 11:25:55 AM »

For a newbie diver like me, I haven't join any reef check or clean up day event, I also didnt pick up the rubbish from the beach and I'm still having Shark fin soup once in a while, BUT what I have done to contribute a little effect is to stop my friends and family to buying shark fin or having shark fin soup in their dinner. I jz offence a shop owner by last week when I go to the shop with my parent to buy some things for CNY, the shop owner keep promoting the shark fin tins for us, then I told him we don t buy shark fin and he shouldn't selling shark fin again bcos the population of the shark is dropping due to too many killing and the life circulation of the shark to the boss, the boss didnt say anything but I can feel that the boss was ignore me from that on. I don't know did he charge more expensive for us later or not, but at least I try my best from now on.

I also share the UW photo to my friends and family, not showing off that I can go diving, I want to let them know if we keep poluting the environment, we will not be able to c the beautiful scenes anymore. Hope this is helping

nanda666 · « **Reply #55 on:** January 16, 2008, 11:46:39 AM »

Quote from: DecLim on January 16, 2008, 11:25:55 AM

For a newbie diver like me, I haven't join any reef check or clean up day event, I also didnt pick up the rubbish from the beach and I'm still having Shark fin soup once in a while, BUT what I have done to contribute a little effect is to stop my friends and family to buying shark fin or having shark fin soup in their dinner. I jz offence a shop owner by last week when I go to the shop with my parent to buy some things for CNY, the shop owner keep promoting the shark fin tins for us, then I told him we don t buy shark fin and he shouldn't selling shark fin again bcos the population of the shark is dropping due to too many killing and the life circulation of the shark to the boss, the boss didnt say anything but I can feel that the boss was ignore me from that on. I don't know did he charge more expensive for us later or not, but at least I try my best from now on.

I also share the UW photo to my friends and family, not showing off that I can go diving, I want to let them know if we keep poluting the environment, we will not be able to c the beautiful scenes anymore. Hope this is helping

good work dude!! Every little bit helps!!

Keep it up